97 Unit manors / manors spawn migs on HQ in 1998

[Juku121]

Have not experienced that at all.
...
We can ask Solarius about it, he should know what triggers the reinforcements.

I know what triggers them:

Code: [Select]

    reinforcements: &EliteSoldiersAndServantsGreaterManorReinforcements
      - type: servants
         ...
      - type: firstwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 5
        maxRuns: 1
        mapBlockFilterType: 2
        spawnBlocks: [NORTH, WEST, EAST]
        useSpawnNodes: true
        spawnZLevels: [0]
        minDistanceFromXcomUnits: 10

    reinforcements: &EliteSoldiersAndServantsGreatestManorReinforcements
      - type: servants
         ...
      - type: northwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        mapBlockFilterType: 2
        spawnBlocks: [NORTH]
        useSpawnNodes: true
        spawnZLevels: [0]
        minDistanceFromXcomUnits: 10
      - type: southwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        mapBlockFilterType: 2
        spawnBlocks: [NORTH, WEST, EAST]
        useSpawnNodes: true
        spawnZLevels: [0]
        minDistanceFromXcomUnits: 10
      - type: eastwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        mapBlockFilterType: 2
        spawnBlocks: [EAST]
        useSpawnNodes: true
        spawnZLevels: [0]
        minDistanceFromXcomUnits: 10
      - type: westwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        mapBlockFilterType: 2
        spawnBlocks: [WEST]
        useSpawnNodes: true
        spawnZLevels: [0]
        minDistanceFromXcomUnits: 10
Observe the 'minTurn: 5', 'minTurn: 3', 'executionOdds: 10' and 'maxRuns: 1' entries. 'Servants' are just maids spawning in before the mission starts.

Matter of fact I have been able to reproduce reinforcements just by either A- entering the mansions door, or B- going past a certain point into the back of the mansion.

I suggest that this is largely due to reinforcement waves being big - so a single wave might look like several - and tending to 'collect' at the edges of the map. And the human tendency to see patterns where there are none.

Some missions are triggered by turn based. but that seems to be the Alien meetings (with MIB).

On rare occasions, I've made it through mansions without seeing any reinforcements.

These are deterministic and always spawn at turn 2. Manors are not deterministic, so might seem different. The same goes for no reinforcements - that 10% chance per turn is not all that big.

[PPQ]

Throwing flares like candy, using incendiary ammo and just blowing shit up so it burns. Using bats as spotters, maybe. Tends to take too much fiddling compared to smoke and punishes mistakes harder. And personally I cannot throw flares like candy due to the 12-tile throwing limit.

Tell me about it. Like, I guess it's something you can pull off if you are an expert. But for us normal folks smoke just works. 

You can also camp in a perimeter building if one presents itself. That's likely safer, but takes more maneuvering and makes mortars hard to use.

If you can find a good building to camp absolutely. I just didn't include it because it's too much of a random thing. But yes. If a wall presents it self as cover use it. Just watch out for corners. People can throw grenades out of those.

This said, mortars still work, you just don't park them next to the wall but in the opposite end of your long line of 16 dudes with reaction fire. 

In my experience, the AI tends to dawdle around a lot when it comes to pure firefights. What kills you is either a grenade or other explosive, or just so much incoming fire (Red Dawn snipers ) that they're bound to get lucky sometime.

That's why I advise avoiding Red Dawn bases until after you get Promotion III off easier ones like the Lotus. Mortars > Snipers.
That and vehicles. RD and Exalt have a chance of spawning tanks in their bases whilst others don't.

There are MiB manors?

I got them confused with EXALT.

[Juku121]

If you can find a good building to camp absolutely.

I mean, you can go into the building to camp. When it's not seethrough, like maybe the one with a library. Then peek out to take a shot, go back to avoid return fire completely, save some TU for reaction-firing anything that tries to poke its head in. I find it easier to just kill and panic the cultists, but if you play ironman, it might be safer to do that.

...Exalt have a chance of spawning tanks in their bases whilst others don't.

They do? I don't see it in the data right now, and don't really recall it either. I'm pretty sure I've seen an EXALT armoured car at some point, but not sure where and whther that might have been something exclusive to some older version.

I got them confused with EXALT.

Yeah, I kinda wish the Liquidators' obvious MiB theme was exploited at some point.

[Chuckebaby]

Code: [Select]

[quote author=Juku121 link=topic=11052.msg152933#msg152933 date=1676076938]
I [i]know[/i] what triggers them:

   mapBlockFilterType: 2
   


I'm curious, what is the "mapBlockFilterType" ?  And is it possible this is what I'm referring to ?

[Juku121]

Code: [Select]

   mapBlockFilterType: 2
I'm curious, what is the "mapBlockFilterType" ?  And is it possible this is what I'm referring to ?

This merely tells the reinforcement routine to ignore any map blocks marked as reinforcement blocks and just use the hardcoded values in 'spawnBlocks: [blablabla]'. I don't think XCF even has any instances of 'markAsReinforcementsBlock'.

So, no, I don't think so.

Can you provide a precise description of what you think happened to you and why it cannot be covered by turn 3/5 spawns with 10% chance per turn of popping out of thin air some distance away from your agents?

[Chuckebaby]

Can you provide a precise description of what you think happened to you and why it cannot be covered by turn 3/5 spawns with 10% chance per turn of popping out of thin air some distance away from your agents?

Yes indeed my friend.

Any manor which I have done, there has always been a triggering point in which reinforcements have been activated.
I've even done tests by reloading saved turns and not entering the manor (or going into the back yard of the manor). This is also true for "Golden Towers". Once you either pass a certain point on ground floor (or proceed  too early to the second floor in the mission).

Though I've done other tests where sending a soldier with jet pack to the roof, shooting a hole in the roof and entering that way will also trigger reinforcements.

If this is just a coincidence than I am extremely surprised. Because as I've said, I've been able to reload saves and avoid the reinforcements by merely not breaching these areas.

[Juku121]

Note that the message about reinforcements means at least one 'wave' has spawned in. It's not a general 'Reinforcements are now activated!' alert. You can get this several times.

I've even done tests by reloading saved turns and not entering the manor (or going into the back yard of the manor).

If this is just a coincidence than I am extremely surprised.

Reloading means relatively little, since any given turn has at least ~2/3 chance of not getting reinforcements. So if you reload, chances are reinforcements won't reappear. I just reloaded six times in a row and they didn't respawn.

I think what's happening is that your mansion door assaults coincide with turn 3-5. I don't think triggering reinforcements by entering a specific map block is even possible. You could spawn enemies with something like land mines, perhaps, but they'd just appear next to where the mine was.

Try a manor assault, breach the front door, save and reload several times. Or try a tier 2 manor, blow the roof before turn 5 and enter. I think you'll see that there's no correlation.

Edit: Or you could just edit alienDeployments_XCOMFILES.rul, find

Code: [Select]

    reinforcements: &EliteSoldiersAndServantsGreatestManorReinforcements
      - type: servants
        ...
      - type: northwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        ...
      - type: southwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        ...
      - type: eastwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        ...
      - type: westwave
        executionOdds: 10
        minTurn: 3
        maxRuns: 1
        ...
and replace all of these with

Code: [Select]

      - type: [whatever]wave
        turns: [0]
        maxRuns: 1
        ...
You'll discover that all the reinforcements have already taken up positions regardless of what you do to the front door.

This is also true for "Golden Towers".

Golden Towers have pretty much the same reinforcements as manors.



Edit2: I think this is another case of something random with an explanation someone finds reasonable and will just not believe it doesn't work that way. Some people have been swearing up and down that they could stop infiltrations by shooting down the Battleships, or that downing a UFO with a Cannon instead of missiles increases the chance of leaving the power source(s) intact.

[Chuckebaby]

Note that the message about reinforcements means at least one 'wave' has spawned in. It's not a general 'Reinforcements are now activated!' alert. You can get this several times.
Reloading means relatively little, since any given turn has at least ~2/3 chance of not getting reinforcements. So if you reload, chances are reinforcements won't reappear. I just reloaded six times in a row and they didn't respawn.

You'll discover that all the reinforcements have already taken up positions regardless of what you do to the front door.
Golden Towers have pretty much the same reinforcements as manors.



Edit2: I think this is another case of something random with an explanation someone finds reasonable and will just not believe it doesn't work that way. Some people have been swearing up and down that they could stop infiltrations by shooting down the Battleships, or that downing a UFO with a Cannon instead of missiles increases the chance of leaving the power source(s) intact.

You could be right Juku.
You have a really in depth, great knowledge of XCF.  So i totally respect where your coming from and I keep an open mind.

I'll try doing more tests.

[Chuckebaby]

Note that the message about reinforcements means at least one 'wave' has spawned in. It's not a general 'Reinforcements are now activated!' alert. You can get this several times.
Reloading means relatively little, since any given turn has at least ~2/3 chance of not getting reinforcements. So if you reload, chances are reinforcements won't reappear. I just reloaded six times in a row and they didn't respawn.

Think I figured out what was going on.
This newer version (7.8.7) seems to be a little different than the previous version.
You are right, it seems to be more random now in this newer version (using turn based random). Previous version was not like this.

[Juku121]

Unless there was a big bug with reinforcements that somehow totally coincidentally made reinforcements read the map situation, I doubt it. I still suggest observer bias or limited samples creating apparent patterns where there are none.

I could be wrong, of course, but so far I've seen nothing to indicate that this is the case.

[Chuckebaby]

I could be wrong, of course, but so far I've seen nothing to indicate that this is the case.

I could be wrong too.
Maybe solarias can tell us if it's changed any in this past version.

[Solarius Scorch]

I can't remember changing it... But it doesn't mean much.