Author Topic: Turning back the clock  (Read 3415 times)

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2023, 02:19:32 am »
Not really. They are different kinds of weapons. The PSG, Arisaka and others are snipers.
...
The SVD and QBZ (both are equal really) are DMR's.
...
It's two different niches really and thus two different stat types.
I was speaking about RL. These are both semi-auto precision rifles chambered in roughly comparable full battle rifle cartridges. There is no way the extra weight on the PSG-1 makes it take 50% longer to fire when that's less than the biggest difference between any 5.56 and 7.62x51 gun in the game. If one of them was bolt action, or .50 cal, yeah. The in-game PSG-1 snap shot is much closer to the generic .308 BA than any semi-auto.

The PSG-1 appears to want to act as a bolt action, like the M24 or CZ 700.

Now, personally I don't ever bother with the proper snipers but that's just me. Like, I can appreciate the role even if I don't have a big use for it.
Proper sniper rifles actually have a somewhat unexpected role: can opener. They do as much and perhaps more damage as big cannon-type weapons, but can actually hit the big bads with reliability. You will appreciate proper sniper rifles when some hardass armoured enemy suddenly turns around the corner, long range or short range.

I also like to kill enemies three screens away in open terrain, but that's just me as well. :)

They are two handed. And that means you have to drop the launcher or other big gun when using them if you want to hit anything.
What makes you think the BO SMG is two-handed? I don't see any coloured 2-s on the sprite. The P90 is indeed two-handed, but only mildly so, 15% accuracy loss vs the usual 50%.

In my use anything that looks like it has armor is going to eat what ever the soldiers primary weapon is. Typically that being either a RPG-7, Grenade Launcher or something similar. The SMG is only there as an offhand weapon for when your RPG-7 tank hunter runs into a random knife cultist that isn't worth wasting a rocket on.
I find it more useful to shoot the mook with someone else. Handguns are for emergencies, like running completely out of ammo, or four agents in a van vs a medium zombie horde, when reloading may not be an option and shooting naked zombies in the face with buckshot revolvers at point blank is as good if not better than shotguns. Or tasers, which are my sidearm of choice for people with non-specialty weapons.

SMGs are a sort of compromise, hoping that among all the bullets being sprayed, there are one or two that hit and roll good damage. And BO pistols/Magnums can actually hit people at a distance and do damage even through moderate armour.

Although the Macro SMG is something else again. Just deletes enemies close-medium range.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 04:12:24 pm by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2023, 07:19:40 pm »
Quote
Uh, it's the Macro SMG that's excessively heavy. Light miniguns weigh 26 loaded with ammo, 2 more than a PKM. And even the big miniguns have been used by many a player long before any power armour starts even being a dream. Some people swear by them. :)
The PKM is more accurate though. Like far more if the stats are to be believed. Guess I newer gave it a fair chance though. I shall do that.

Quote
But vs the BO ALMG it has very similar damage, can fire twice per turn without freezing in place, and throws 4 snap rounds vs 3-4, albeit at only two targets. Has a bit of extra effective snap range, too. The twice-per-turn autofire alone makes it better for me. And that's the weakest of the three BO machine guns.
The PKM needs just 25% TU for a snap shot vs the BOALMG's 35%. So that's 4 vs 2. Or more realistically 3 vs 2 if you are moving. But MG's are supposed to be full auto anyway. And for that it's just 45% vs 50% for the PKM so I guess you could get an extra shot out of it. But like it just isn't a strait massive upgrade.

In fact, that's my view on most BlackOps gear. It's better but not better enough to justify rebuying my inventory.

Quote
Gaming companies like people who want to make games above making money. I'd say it's their calling, wouldn't you?

I'm all too aware of the culture gap between srsface software engineering, even financial, and what goes on in game companies. Most programmers are aware of their worth, and act accordingly. Gaming is like a friggin Wild West compared to that.

Also, you don't need to be young for this bullshit to work. Wasn't it Chris Avellone who essentially got kicked from being a founder and cried to the world about how hard his life was afterwards, despite being a minor celebrity (and other, less pleasant things besides). There's also no shortage of indies working on weekends and in spare hours, or for peanuts, trying to make their dream game a reality along with some money to show for it instead of sinking their savings into it.
There is nothing foolish about following your dreams. But only a fool allows them to be co opted by corporate greed.

It basically boils down to the difference between a job and a profession. A profession is what you do. But a job is so much more. It includes the working environment, wage and all sorts of other factors. And that's the key here.

Programming is my dream profession, but I don't have a dream job. Hell I'd work for the aliens if the pay was good.

But some people have a dream Job. And in every industry where this is true which includes video games, the military, emergency services and medicine to name a few the employers realize that if they can attract this sort of people they can hijack that dream latching onto it like a zombie parasite and suck the soul out of that person who for a variety of reasons will refuse to see his dream has become a nightmare.

So in short, follow your dreams but do it on your terms.

Quote
Hmm, this is exactly backwards. Did the French do that on purpose? :o
It's just how the language works. OTAN stands for Organisation du traité de l'Atlantique nord or "Organization of the treaty of the North Atlantic".

Quote
Yeah, that's the big problem with alloy ammo being the great equalizer. You get UAC guns and Pulse weapons before you get a reliable supply of it, and those are just miles better. Especially now with the Tritanium Matrix change.
Except for the UAC rifle. That thing is bad. Like three round bursts instead of snap fire and inaccurate. Ewww....

Quote
I also like the sprites far better than the historical guns'.
I actually like the real world stuff more. It just gives me that feeling of playing as the plucky humans taking the fight to the aliens one angry ball of lead at a time.

I was speaking about RL. These are both semi-auto precision rifles chambered in roughly comparable full battle rifle cartridges. There is no way the extra weight on the PSG-1 makes it take 50% longer to fire when that's less than the biggest difference between any 5.56 and 7.62x51 gun in the game. If one of them was bolt action, or .50 cal, yeah. The in-game PSG-1 snap shot is much closer to the generic .308 BA than any semi-auto.
Good point. In my mind I confused the PSG with the Walter 2000.

Entirely my bad. The PSG is basically a sniper G3. So it should be equivalent to the SVD.

Quote
Proper sniper rifles actually have a somewhat unexpected role: can opener. They do as much and perhaps more damage as big cannon-type weapons, but can actually hit the big bads with reliability. You will appreciate proper sniper rifles when some hardass armoured enemy suddenly turns around the corner, long range or short range.
I understand that. It's just that I tend to play very defensively and use a lot of smoke and ambushes. So when someone does pop out of a corner I typically have 3-4 and up to 16 guys and at least one heavy weapon waiting.

And the PKM is doing gods work.

Quote
I also like to kill enemies three screens away in open terrain, but that's just me as well. :)
I prefer to use smoke to make sure people can't see me half a screen away. :)

Quote
What makes you think the BO SMG is two-handed? I don't see any coloured 2-s on the sprite.
Good point. I could have sworn that it was but apparently not. I must have confused it with the UAC SMG.

Still, maybe there is something that I don't see here because stat vise it just isn't that great without the special ammo.
I mean, look at it compared to the Glock 18.

GunDamageMagazineAccurcy (aimed)Accurcy (snap)Accurcy (auto)Shots per turn (aimed)Shots per turn (snap)Shots per turn (auto)
Glock 18223372%72%50%564
Blackops SMG2530-65%50%-32

So while the Glock 18 does a tiny bit less damage it is more accurate AND gets twice as many shots per turn. This makes it the ideal backup sidearm.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the Glock 18 is the ideal SMG in this game if armor penetration is not a concern.

Quote
I find it more useful to shoot the mook with someone else. Handguns are for emergencies, like running completely out of ammo, or four agents in a van vs a medium zombie horde, when reloading may not be an option and shooting naked zombies in the face with buckshot revolvers at point blank is as good if not better than shotguns. Or tasers, which are my sidearm of choice for people with non-specialty weapons.
My general rule is that everyone who can carry one (weight limit) gets a taser. And everyone with a weapon that is unwise to fire at close range gets a SMG as a sidearm. So that's basically my RPG and grenade launcher guys.

As for zombies I tend to clear them out using the good old firing line. As in line up all my guys next to a wall (or inside a vehicle) and put the machinegunners up front. The PKM once more doing gods work here.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 08:39:55 pm by PPQ »

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2023, 08:55:42 pm »
Edit:
The PKM needs just 25% TU for a snap shot vs the BOALMG's 35%. So that's 4 vs 2. Or more realistically 3 vs 2 if you are moving. But MG's are supposed to be full auto anyway. And for that it's just 45% vs 50% for the PKM so I guess you could get an extra shot out of it. But like it just isn't a strait massive upgrade.
That BOALMG 'snap' shot fires twice, though. And doubling your fire rate is a pretty massive upgrade in my book.

In fact, that's my view on most BlackOps gear. It's better but not better enough to justify rebuying my inventory.
That is indeed true. But I'm a pack rat, so I do it anyway. :D

The PKM is more accurate though. Like far more if the stats are to be believed.
Yes, the PKM and other machine guns (especially the two GPMGs) are better for long range. Miniguns are not universal weapons. But at up to 20, maybe 25 tiles, miniguns put out an enormous amount of shots with only moderate accuracy loss. If you're kneeling, that is. Miniguns have a giant kneeling bonus.

You can fire 24 shots and maneuver quite comfortably, instead of 6 and maneuver or 12 and freeze for the PKM. Or even 30 with less moving around for the heavy minigun. And if someone comes close, it's basically a shotgun. Finally, it also shreds armour like no tomorrow. You can kill Sectopods by minigunning them several times.

I wouldn't replace every machine gun with miniguns. But I definitely like taking one or two along.

Except for the UAC rifle. That thing is bad. Like three round bursts instead of snap fire and inaccurate.
These three round snaps are more accurate than most autofire. Long-range accuracy isn't very good, but ~75% at the edge of vision range for 100 FA agents is passable. You also also get three-round aimed shots. All in all, this thing has a niche, albeit one that already has lots of other weapons in it.

I actually like the real world stuff more. It just gives me that feeling of playing as the plucky humans taking the fight to the aliens one angry ball of lead at a time.
I like the BO weapons because I'm kinda stuck with my headcanon of these being custom-made X-Com weapons instead of shadow ops standard issue. I think back when I did a minor overhaul, I actually named them X-Com Rifle, etc.

It's just that I tend to play very defensively and use a lot of smoke and ambushes. So when someone does pop out of a corner I typically have 3-4 and up to 16 guys and at least one heavy weapon waiting.

I prefer to use smoke to make sure people can't see me half a screen away.
The sniper rifle works from the front, from the back, can shoot more rounds, holds more ammo, and can be used for sniping as well. It's a more generalist weapon.

It's not as if sniper rifles are exclusive with smoke. Sit your agents in a smoke cloud, send some out to scout, cover them in more smoke, have the snipers delete whatever they find. They're out of vision range anyway, smoke won't hinder them any further. Classic X-Com scout-sniper tactics. The only problem is accidentally biting off more than your snipers can chew.

I mean, yeah, rocket launchers and similar are also good to have. I also tend to carry at least one heavy weapon, but I find sniper rifles more convenient and useful in more situations. YMMV.

And the PKM is doing gods work.
Well, to be honest, I play with BO machine guns that all have 3-round snaps and 6-round full auto fire. PKM just doesn't compare. None of the other light machine guns do, only the GPMGs for long-range autofire.

Still, maybe there is something that I don't see here because stat vise it just isn't that great without the special ammo.
I mean, look at it compared to the Glock 18.
...
So while the Glock 18 does a tiny bit less damage it is more accurate AND gets twice as many shots per turn.
What's missing in this table is that each of these 'snap' shots fires off three rounds, and the auto does six. So the actual number of shots is thrice that, 50% more than the Glock. Less targets, but I doubt your 2-round bursts are instant kills the vast majority of the time.

Also, 25 vs 22 damage is in one of the most armour-sensitive ranges of the game. Hitting something for +3-6 damage can be quite significant.

Accuracy is really not much different except for aimed shots. And if you want to kill something with aimed pistol shots, a Glock isn't going to cut it. That would need one of the big handguns. Me, I get a rifleman to do that instead.

As for zombies I tend to clear them out using the good old firing line.
That's fine when you actually have enough men for it, but four guys in a van isn't it. They should stack everything on them to avoid reloading while a Zombie is gnawing off their face. I found that to be the only instance where the pocket shotguns actually worked for me.

Spoiler" Software dev OT continues":
There is nothing foolish about following your dreams. But only a fool allows them to be co opted by corporate greed.
Happens to game devs even without any corporates being involved. Hobby projects turned into failed jobs, chasing after ephemeral Patreon success, even successful medium-sized indie companies that began as half-passion projects are frequently one botched project away from bankruptcy.

I don't know what it is that makes game dev such a ripe field for chasing the moon and falling flat.

It's just how the language works.
I bet that's exactly what the French envoys said upon signing. ;D
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 09:02:16 pm by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2023, 10:15:46 pm »
Edit:That BOALMG 'snap' shot fires twice, though. And doubling your fire rate is a pretty massive upgrade in my book.
Didn't know that. That actually makes it good. Not sure about massive upgrade but good enough that I'll give it a try.

Quote
Yes, the PKM and other machine guns (especially the two GPMGs) are better for long range. Miniguns are not universal weapons. But at up to 20, maybe 25 tiles, miniguns put out an enormous amount of shots with only moderate accuracy loss. If you're kneeling, that is. Miniguns have a giant kneeling bonus.
I just tried them on my first mansion mission and I must say that they ain't half bad. Like, I am not sure I'd take one over a PKM but like... they do good work as a ultra heavy SMG of sorts.
So I will definitively have to experiment more with them.

I will probably convert two of my rifleman into minigunners and have them as a secondary to my machineguns to see how it works out.

Quote
These three round snaps are more accurate than most autofire. Long-range accuracy isn't very good, but ~75% at the edge of vision range for 100 FA agents is passable. You also also get three-round aimed shots. All in all, this thing has a niche, albeit one that already has lots of other weapons in it.
Honestly I've only ever had terrible luck with them. Like, anything past shotgun range just misses all the time. And I am really used to my riflemen putting out snap shot after snap shot of reasonably accurate fire.

Quote
It's not as if sniper rifles are exclusive with smoke. Sit your agents in a smoke cloud, send some out to scout, cover them in more smoke, have the snipers delete whatever they find. They're out of vision range anyway, smoke won't hinder them any further. Classic X-Com scout-sniper tactics. The only problem is accidentally biting off more than your snipers can chew.
Or just advance under cover of smoke, close in, capture and detain. And murderize anything you can't take.

That's why I love the grenade launchers. Stun grenades FTW.

Quote
What's missing in this table is that each of these 'snap' shots fires off three rounds, and the auto does six. So the actual number of shots is thrice that, 50% more than the Glock. Less targets, but I doubt your 2-round bursts are instant kills the vast majority of the time.
I see. I did not know that. That actually makes them really good against heavier targets. I think I shall transition to them than since the time of low armor is running to an end.

Quote
Also, 25 vs 22 damage is in one of the most armour-sensitive ranges of the game. Hitting something for +3-6 damage can be quite significant.
Really?

Quote
Accuracy is really not much different except for aimed shots. And if you want to kill something with aimed pistol shots, a Glock isn't going to cut it. That would need one of the big handguns. Me, I get a rifleman to do that instead.
I generally find the auto fire to be good enough to clear almost anything. Though again, I am mostly dealing with cultists since I find the early game before the aliens to be the most fun part and keep restarting to that.

Quote
That's fine when you actually have enough men for it, but four guys in a van isn't it. They should stack everything on them to avoid reloading while a Zombie is gnawing off their face. I found that to be the only instance where the pocket shotguns actually worked for me.
I only use the vans for covert missions. Otherwise it's all 16 guys all the time. And I always rush for the osprey as soon as possible.

Also, I may or may not have modded it to have the same range as the helicopter.

Spoiler" Software dev OT continues":
Happens to game devs even without any corporates being involved. Hobby projects turned into failed jobs, chasing after ephemeral Patreon success, even successful medium-sized indie companies that began as half-passion projects are frequently one botched project away from bankruptcy.

I don't know what it is that makes game dev such a ripe field for chasing the moon and falling flat.[/quote]
There is a huge difference between falling flat and having a horrible job. One is something you can learn from and grow and ultimately just another life experience. The other is just a horrible job.

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2023, 11:08:01 pm »
Honestly I've only ever had terrible luck with them. Like, anything past shotgun range just misses all the time.
Well, they're kinda high-risk, high-reward. If 2-3 shots hit, that's a tough enemy down with very few TUs spent. But, yeah, they're too much like shotguns to work in a general rifle role.

Or just advance under cover of smoke, close in, capture and detain. And murderize anything you can't take.
...
That's why I love the grenade launchers. Stun grenades FTW.
Well, that works, too. Probably more effort than just shooting heads off people and assorted critters, but better payoff.

And, yeah, the grenade launchers have a lot of neat ammo.

Really?
Well, maybe I exaggerate a little. :) But when your average damage is 0, like against EXALT goons, +2-3 x6 is something. Might be the difference between getting a bleed on a good roll and not.

I only use the vans for covert missions. Otherwise it's all 16 guys all the time. And I always rush for the osprey as soon as possible.
I was alluding to a time when the van or maybe a small helicopter is all you have. There's a sizeable period of that, and buckshot revolvers aren't too hard to get.

Also, I may or may not have modded it to have the same range as the helicopter.
:o :D

Spoiler" Software dev OT continues":
There is a huge difference between falling flat and having a horrible job. One is something you can learn from and grow and ultimately just another life experience. The other is just a horrible job.
Falling flat in game dev tends to come with hellish crunch time before it all unravels, though. :( And the job can occasionally be quite horrible, even with the biggest players, as the Activision-Blizzard conundrum shows.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 11:15:27 pm by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2023, 11:27:01 pm »
Quote
Well, maybe I exaggerate a little. :) But when your average damage is 0, like against EXALT goons, +2-3 x6 is something. Might be the difference between getting a bleed on a good roll and not.
I'll have to try them. As said, I had no idea they had double and triple shot per trigger press.

Quote
I was alluding to a time when the van or maybe a small helicopter is all you have. There's a sizeable period of that, and buckshot revolvers aren't too hard to get.
:o :D
So the very, very early game? Like I can rush for the osprey within year 1. It's the one thing I rush for more than anything.

Spoiler" Software dev OT continues":
Quote
Falling flat in game dev tends to come with hellish crunch time before it all unravels, though. :( And the job can occasionally be quite horrible, even with the biggest players, as the Activision-Blizzard conundrum shows.
Not "even" but "especially". Big corporations always suck to work for no matter what field you are in. You want to work for medium sized ones (less than 1000 people). They are big enough to pay good wages but small enough not to have become infested by the plague of middle management and the plague which are expert beginners.

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2023, 12:10:09 am »
So the very, very early game? Like I can rush for the osprey within year 1. It's the one thing I rush for more than anything.
Yeah. I don't tent to rush for it, because generally my goal is to explore the mod. So last time I got it in May '98. I did have fiddled-with global-range improved Mudrangers to make up for those in the meanwhile, though. These aren't actually half bad as far as cover goes. I wish we had some for the mansion assaults.

Spoiler" Software dev OT continues":
Not "even" but "especially". Big corporations always suck to work for no matter what field you are in.
Well, the problem with Bliz was more that it was a big company run like a bunch of 'bros' in a basement. Not sure it was actually caused by it being big, more due to the abuse people were willing to take to participate in the fame. And then it all burst. Conversely, EA - the biggest, most reviled gaming conglomerate there is - is reputed to be above average when it comes to treating its developers. Game dev is just such a strange topsy-turvy world.

You want to work for medium sized ones (less than 1000 people).
I generally agree, but not much of these in game dev, and what's still there tends to get eaten by the big players.

Myself, I'm out of the rat race altogether. Has its own perks and downsides.

expert beginners
That's explicitly a failure of training, i.e. management. Can happen anywhere that doesn't care about that, although I suppose it's harder to carry around dead weight in smaller enterprises.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 12:14:01 am by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2023, 06:58:12 pm »
Anyway I'd like to report that I am currently testing my modified version of the game. We'll see what happens.

Also, you have converted me to the BlackOps weapons. I genuinely did not know they fired twice. The only one that really disappoints me though is the Assault LMG. Like, maybe I am using it wrong or something but it's not significantly better than their rifle.

Offline Charly1

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2023, 09:37:00 pm »
Out of interest, what year month do people usually end up finishing the game?

Im in November 2019. Just researched Improved Labs. Still using Black Ops snipers with tritanium rounds. Bringing in 6.5m in funding a month. Got 6 active bases and constructing a 7th for storage as I keep running out of space... although I just saw the costs for them new labs.

I think coming into the gsme new, the buggest hurdle are the manors as you dont know they are there or that they keep spawning. Not sure if an extra few months to deal with them before the invasion would help?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Offline PPQ

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2023, 12:09:23 am »
I newer have. At least not with this mod. I tried several times but I had to quit due to real life taking up too much time. And when ever I came back enough time had passed that I forgot what I was doing and just restarted.

Offline Chuckebaby

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • Chrysalis are people too
    • View Profile
Re: Turning back the clock
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2023, 12:48:24 pm »
I went into the invasion with paper armor, elastic bands and threw rocks at enemies. You'll be good.
If all else fails, boost one of your soldiers firing stats. Make him your main sniper.

And as far as the Black opts SR. It was one of my favorite weapons in the game.