aliens

Author Topic: Another balance thread  (Read 8158 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2022, 05:20:20 pm »
Maybe AI's weapons should always cause at least some damage regardless of whatever armor the player wears (and with the right kind of tool a lot).

Yeah, this is what I'm doing whenever I can. But it's fairly limited; for example, an EMP bomb deals 10% damage to non-cybernetic units, and it shouldn't deal more, but it makes it almost useless against human agents. Another example are the Elerium weapons, which only do damage to certain organisms. Or airborne toxic gases which only affect breathing units, etc.

I think I will use this simple solution. It just needs different enemy type assemblies in every map - at least when they are all armed with non-scifi weapons (or/and teeths and claws :D), but still supposed to be able to fight against armored vehicles and walking tanks at least somehow. Anti-tank mines would give a nice assistance :P

An AI unit using wrong weapons to wrong targets is suitable if it just doesn't carry anything else, I think.

Yeah, it's the reality we must live with. But it prevents me from doing things like giving AI units multiple ammo types to deal with different threats. (Or technically I can give them various clips, but I can't ensure they'll use it properly.)

Nevertheless, there's also the issue whether AI should know such things or not... But I'm inclined to say yes, since like Meridian often says, the AI needs every advantage.

Offline termidor

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2022, 11:57:34 am »
Another minor balance concern, should gas explosives be pushed back a bit? I quite love how effective  they are, but for only promo III weapons they are too effective,  in both agent hands but in cultists as well. They do have a great radius, insta kill 75% of the time and those who survive are put to sleep., ignore shields and put to sleep those not killed. While I wouldn't want to change how they worked, maybe they can be tied to alien tech/hybrid so that napalm/grenades aren't immediately obsolete against standard  enemies

Offline Juku121

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2022, 01:33:41 am »
Look, I don't care whether you think the LC is good or not. I think it is.
Do you actually have a situation to back this up with, except for "The LC can be all things to everyone, but is kinda mediocre at everything"? Or is that the entirety of its OP-ness?

All this multi-page back-and-forth could be easily avoided if you were more forthcoming with your reasoning. Sometimes you do, and it's good or at least valid so people tend to drop their criticisms quickly enough.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2022, 01:33:10 pm »
Another minor balance concern, should gas explosives be pushed back a bit? I quite love how effective  they are, but for only promo III weapons they are too effective,  in both agent hands but in cultists as well. They do have a great radius, insta kill 75% of the time and those who survive are put to sleep., ignore shields and put to sleep those not killed. While I wouldn't want to change how they worked, maybe they can be tied to alien tech/hybrid so that napalm/grenades aren't immediately obsolete against standard  enemies

Hmm, maybe they are too good. It's just hgard to justify making them even harder to obtain, after all they're just gas grenades. Or maybe they're too strong? Thoughts welcome.

Do you actually have a situation to back this up with, except for "The LC can be all things to everyone, but is kinda mediocre at everything"? Or is that the entirety of its OP-ness?

It has a lot of dakka.

All this multi-page back-and-forth could be easily avoided if you were more forthcoming with your reasoning. Sometimes you do, and it's good or at least valid so people tend to drop their criticisms quickly enough.

I'm not paid to write 2 hour speeches. Take it or leave it.

All I care about is improving the mod, not justifying every detail to random self-appointed challengers.

Offline termidor

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2022, 03:43:39 pm »
Hmm, maybe they are too good. It's just hgard to justify making them even harder to obtain, after all they're just gas grenades. Or maybe they're too strong? Thoughts welcome.
I think mechanically they are fine as they are using special damage. Maybe radius of effect could be decreased? Also in regards to obtaining then, I suppose the closest real life equivalent would be nerve agents, which would be funny how to explain to the UN that your agents are walking war crimes. I was thinking of hybrids bc they are the most related to  the chem trail aspect, so they could have invented a new gas that allows X-com to use it without explainii where they are getting their chemical arsenal.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2022, 04:27:10 pm »
It has a lot of dakka.
Not really. No auto-fire, AP damage only mildly higher than most shotgun slugs and totally outcompeted by sniper rifles, HE and incendiary worse than handheld or GL versions.

If sniper rifles didn't exist, you might have a point. But they do.

It does have a fast snap shot and pretty high-damage shot shells, but low accuracy means they're really not that much better than other shotguns at range.

For the record, I don't think the LC is bad. I see it as a perfectly reasonable weapon whose strength is the ammo variety and weakness that it's a mish-mash of different functions that don't work that well individually. Kind of like a 'realistic' handheld cannon would be in my imagination, a niche weapon used only by guys on super-soldier serum because everyone else knows it doesn't work without mounting it on a vehicle.

The big cannons are when you get the actual dakka. The LC is a weapon with a (non-optimal) niche, and pretty useless to people who want every soldier to be optimised for what they do (like Vakrug :) ). Nothing OP at all.

I'm not paid to write 2 hour speeches. Take it or leave it.
But you can and do come up with working 1-2 sentence reasons all the time. Just not all the time, and not when you get defensive.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 04:29:47 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2022, 05:45:35 pm »
I am not gracing this with a reply, lol.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2022, 06:38:37 pm »
Which, under normal internet argument procedure ;), means you don't have one.

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2022, 06:49:21 pm »
and pretty useless to people who want every soldier to be optimised for what they do (like Vakrug :) ). Nothing OP at all.
What are you talking about? All I wanted to know is a place in the world for a Light Cannon. If it was created for a joke, that is if Light Cannon was created intentionally bad, I could have accepted that. But if not, then I would like to know how to use it properly. (Same with Heavy Turbolaser, but now I am certain it is a joke.)

Offline termidor

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2022, 06:56:59 pm »
Which, under normal internet argument procedure ;), means you don't have one.
Bruh how do you expect to be given replies with such a patronizing attitude?

Offline Juku121

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2022, 07:15:55 pm »
But if not, then I would like to know how to use it properly.
1) Load a soldier up with various ammo types, designate some ammo mules, presto, instant universal soldier. Not efficient since the team should cover all bases as a whole, but if you want a soldier who's always ready for anything (for roleplay reasons or whatever), well, you've got one.

2) As a shotgun that works against moderately armoured enemies at short range. You can still reliably injure people with Kevlar Vest equivalent armour pretty badly with a LC, while anything below the Thrasher becomes a roulette vs the RNG gods.

3) An alternative to sniper rifles for AP purposes if you somehow don't get access to the better ones before finding some LCs on Red Dawn corpses.


Spoiler" Feedback etiquette":
Bruh how do you expect to be given replies with such a patronizing attitude?
I don't. It's been clear from the beginning that no answer besides 'dakka' will be forthcoming even if there is one.

And if I respond with some snark to an absolutely rude and condescending reply, well, it's me throwing good electrons after bad but it's not as if Solarius is an innocently wronged party here. We both could and should stop, but we can't. :-\

Also, if expecting people on the internet to either substantiate their argument or shut up is patronizing to you, you've been living in a very strange corner of it until now. There are places that force you to provide arguments by rules, there are places that will get you just warned for not participating, there are places where it's a free-for-all, there are places where the 'old boys' or owners can do as they please and others need to toe the line, there are places that stop, perhaps even kill and erase any arguments getting out of hand, etc. But I'm not aware of somewhere you can just say "I'm right and don't need proof, you know nothing, lol" and expect not to get any pushback.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 07:35:00 pm by Juku121 »

Offline termidor

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2022, 02:59:20 am »
So to not spam  the main thread:
-Is there a point to nigth ops armor when liquidator armor is an option, and you may get it before the nigth ops one? Seems to me like the nigth ops is an inferior tier, giving protection wise less frontal protection than a kevlar. Maube it could be up armored a little or be avatible sooner.

- Outrunner being 100% vulnerable to fire is hilarious but tragic. A car shouldn't be taken out by a single fire grenade
.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2022, 12:37:47 pm »
Which, under normal internet argument procedure ;), means you don't have one.

Al right, you little psychotic vampire. I am putting you on my ignored list. I've been postponing this far too long in light of your minor contributions, but you gave me no other option. Hence from now on, I will not see any further examples of your passive-aggressive, petty, manipulative bullshit. You are the literal cancer of this forum and the first person to get on my ignore list since I joined in 2014; I hope you're proud of this achievement, since I doubt you get to see many more in your life.

-Is there a point to nigth ops armor when liquidator armor is an option, and you may get it before the nigth ops one? Seems to me like the nigth ops is an inferior tier, giving protection wise less frontal protection than a kevlar. Maube it could be up armored a little or be avatible sooner.

It depends on your needs... It's basically a lighter version, giving you extra camouflage and more mobility. I made it mostly to fight aliens, whose weapons are too strong for armours anyway, so it's better to go as light as possible.

- Outrunner being 100% vulnerable to fire is hilarious but tragic. A car shouldn't be taken out by a single fire grenade
.

OK, I'll review it - indeed it sounds wrong. Probably my mistake somewhere in the code.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Another balance thread
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2022, 04:51:43 pm »
I made it mostly to fight aliens, whose weapons are too strong for armours anyway, so it's better to go as light as possible.
Fighting aliens at night is as inadvisable as ever in XCF, and by the time you might want to do so in earnest, you should be fielding Cyber Armors or similar to actually stand a chance. Or maybe use drones or better yet, Shadowbats, as night spotters and blast the aliens with artillery.

Getting a leg up on human foes might be workable, but then Liquidator armour is a lot better for survivability.

A car shouldn't be taken out by a single fire grenade
In Hollywood, cars get taken out by a single handgun round all the time. :) And this Outrunner thing looks very unsafe.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 04:56:16 pm by Juku121 »