Dealing with Psionics Before Labs

[TaxxiDriver]

It is so painful to face psionic attacks before you get some training and screening through labs. Well in fact even with that, your soldiers still can be panicked or mind controlled (Is there any limit point from where you become invulnerable to psionic attacks? I don't know such thing) if you are just unlucky    But it's much easier to deal with compared to the Sectoid Base Defense Mission in January.

Some people say Cyberdisks are the problem, but they are not that hard if you know what to do. The problem is rather the steady stream of psionic attacks. Even when none of them can see you, they somehow manage to abuse MC and panicking, several times in just one turn. Without tank, it is almost impossible to beat them in the early January unless you got lucky so that none of your heavy-weapon-wielding guys got MCed. You cannot even grab the rocket launcher: I dare you. It is too risky if you've decided not to abuse save/load since one single shot can kill more than half of your troops.

So I just wanted to ask other players about how you deal with psionic attacks in the early games without adding useful mods that can effectively counteract against it. Any useful strategies?

[cjones]

Some tactics I use when I don't enable psi LOS ( which is always nowadays.  I feel like I have paid my psi dues years ago on ps1).

First, to my knowledge. The aliens have to see at least one of your squad and can them psi any of them.  So try to keep hidden all troops as much as possible.  Hard to do. But not impossible.  Smoke helps a lot.

Two, aliens seek out weak psi troops as I recall.  How do u know without psi lab u ask?  Previous missions will reveal that.  So once u know who is weak either sack or use em as psi bait.  Equip him with just a medikit and put him in vanguard. 

Another tactic, keep weapons in backpack or on ground when alien turn.

And finally, let me tell u a funny story...

One month I was desperate to take out the only base I could see since I had a warning prior month on score.  This was like month 3 or 4 I think and I was in USA and my radar was not giving me any UFOs.

I loaded my ranger with stun rods only.   Took a tank to deal with cyber disc.  My idea was let em psi all they want.  Worst case my guys act like a bunch a frat boys and poke each other with stun rods.

So I get to about turn 4 and boom.  My tank gets toasted by the 3rd disc it engaged.  Now I have a bunch a meat puppets running around shocking themselves and cyberdiscs picking them off.  I lose a few guys and since I'm not getting many kills, only stuns my guys morale is only going down.  In a fit of desperation I charge at a disc with a stun rod.....and it gets stunned?!

Incredulous I try it again and stun another one. 

Long story short, of course I still lost the mission, I mean come on.  But did find it interesting I could stun a disc.

I don't recall which version I was playing of open xcom.  Vanilla I think
 
But there ya go, I challenge u to succeed where I failed.  Fill the ranger up with a bunch a drunk frat boys and cattle rods.  Heck leave the tank at home.  No smoke, mwhaha

[Arthanor]

Intelligent aliens remember your position for several turns. I previously thought that they remembered the position they saw you at (so you just had to move), but recently discover that they remember you and know your actual position, even if you move. This allows them to keep psi-attacking the troopers they know about.

There are a few things that can be done to better deal with psi attacks. The most important one is to know that the aliens actually are aware of your troops' psi-strength and will target the weakest ones. So as soon as you find out who systematically gets targeted, you know your weakest link. The best thing to do is to leave them with no weapons and use them to "soak" the aliens' psi-attacks. Don't kill them, since then the aliens will target the next weakest trooper, which you have to kill, and so on and you end up killing all your troops for the aliens.

Aliens tend to not pick up weapons and that also goes for MC'd troops. If you want to use rocket launchers but know that there is a MC risk, have a gunner and a supplier. Gunner gets in position and has a rocket launcher but no rocket. Supplier has all the rockets (up to 5 I guess) and stays close to the gunner but out of alien sight. As soon as you are set, throw a rocket to the gunner, load the rocket launcher and fire. End of turn, if one of them gets MC'd they either have an empty gun or lots of rockets with nothing to use them.

Every time you have a target, throw a rocket to the gunner, load and fire. Reloading is 15 TUs, no matter where the ammo is (so from the floor is the same cost as from the backpack). MC can get annoying as it will break your formation, but that's all it will do. This is safer than using HE pack since Aliens do know how to prime and throw grenades.

You can do something similar with other troopers, having them all drop their weapons at the end of their actions, then pick them back up at the beginning of your next turn. It wastes TUs but it saves lives It works for the rocket launcher too, but it is easier to have a gunner and supplier since the gunner doesn't waste TUs to pick up the gun (and an aim shot is pretty costly).

@cjones: That story is pretty funny Did you get a positive score out of venture? Also, it is true you can stun cyberdiscs. I have done it in OpenXCom. It actually kills them but they don't blow up. Stun bombs and stun rods both work. Very useful as in my mod, cyberdisc corpses are very work it.

[TaxxiDriver]

Thanks for all the useful information. There are always a lot of things to learn

It's really frustrating that they can actually cast MC even though none of them can see me. I've checked this when I was on a base defense mission. It's really too much, I think. Especially in January, you don't have any prior knowledge gained from previous missions, and if you fail the base defense mission then it's bye-bye! And as far as I know, only commanders cast MC but in base defense mission there are tons of them! On the other hand, after you've built those labs and trained soldiers, the strong guys would resist MC so strongly that you would rather make them not to use MC for challenge's purpose. I think it's really hard to balance it (I'm not a good at moding right now, unfortunately). 

I've seen that stun rod is effective against cyberdisks from X-COM Wiki but couldn't dare it! Sectoids+Cyberdisks combination is indeed too much strong. By the way it's strange since I've never heard of 'stunning' machines...

Seperating weapon and ammunition is indeed a very clever idea! I actually turn on the 'Alien Pickup Weapon' mod to make it more challenging, but I don't think MCed soldiers can pick up weapons other than plasma rifles or stuff like that (according to the corresponding ruleset). I'll try that later.

Well, the reason I got this nerved is that, in my previous game the graph showed that there is some UFO activity in Austrailia, and while my Skyranger went into there with Interceptors, the retaliation ship got into my base... I had only 7 soldiers with 1 cannon tank (I deliberately bought cannon tank for this). I was almost able to clear them out but failed by a close call 

Guess I have to drink some beer. Life is tough.

[cjones]

@arthanor,  I ended up wiping squad. 

[ivandogovich]

I'm facing Sectoids and Discs right now in my LP. 

My troopers are woefully under-equipped as the assault team in on the  'Ranger heading to Europe.  Yup, battle armor, better weapons etc.  Because of my challenge rules, I have no long guns: pistols/grenades/melee only.  (That also means no tanks though I do have a scout drone).

Current base loadout: 15 soldiers in pajamas, 4 pistols, 5-6 stunrods, 5 HE packs, and about a dozen each grenades and proxie grenades.  Good times.

Fortunately I have PSI Lof, and that will save me from some real PSI trouble.

Even without the PSI attacks this is going to be really rough, because taking down those discs can be brutal.

[Arthanor]

Psionic Line of Fire makes a whole lot of sense and a big difference. But it changes gameplay a lot too and although I think it is for the better, it feels like there should be other alternatives.

Regarding aliens picking up weapons, they will only pick up weapons dropped in their turn, to prevent the player from "baiting" aliens by throwing weapons on the ground. That means if you drop your troopers' weapons in your turn, they will not pick them up. It's a bit gamey, but so is being able to MC anyone anywhere..

I wish there was a way to limit the range of psi-amps. When I tried I could not get it to work. I suspect it is possible in the nightly though, as I think Dioxine is using that. Although since you mentioned not using mods to solve the issue, that's of no help either.

[TaxxiDriver]

I'm facing Sectoids and Discs right now in my LP. 

My troopers are woefully under-equipped as the assault team in on the  'Ranger heading to Europe.  Yup, battle armor, better weapons etc.  Because of my challenge rules, I have no long guns: pistols/grenades/melee only.  (That also means no tanks though I do have a scout drone).

Current base loadout: 15 soldiers in pajamas, 4 pistols, 5-6 stunrods, 5 HE packs, and about a dozen each grenades and proxie grenades.  Good times.

I've watched the LP and you did a great job! That was actually my first time watching someone really using the stun rod to disks. And I also didn't know that it can take as much as 3 stun rods... That's not good!

Psionic Line of Fire makes a whole lot of sense and a big difference. But it changes gameplay a lot too and although I think it is for the better, it feels like there should be other alternatives.

Regarding aliens picking up weapons, they will only pick up weapons dropped in their turn, to prevent the player from "baiting" aliens by throwing weapons on the ground. That means if you drop your troopers' weapons in your turn, they will not pick them up. It's a bit gamey, but so is being able to MC anyone anywhere..

I wish there was a way to limit the range of psi-amps. When I tried I could not get it to work. I suspect it is possible in the nightly though, as I think Dioxine is using that. Although since you mentioned not using mods to solve the issue, that's of no help either.

Oh, I didn't know the exact mechanism of the 'Alien Pickup' mod. Thanks 
I strongly agree that it would have been much better if there is a way to handle the psi balance problem. In my game I came up to May and now I found out that one of my excellent soldiers had only 1 psi strength (yes, just 1. I was surprised how the XCOM can be this cruel). The thing is, it wasn't even a bit of a problem though since so far I haven't got any psi attack due to the psi LOS mod...

Here are my several thoughts about it:

(1) Limiting the psi LOS: For example, sectoids(including ethereals and XCOM agents from now on) can only cast MC to a SPECIFIC target when one of any sectoids can see THAT specific target. MC can still be cast to the target who has the weakest psi strength AMONG those who can be witnessed by other sectoids(this of course wouldn't hold for XCOM agents).

(2) LOS connecting requirement: Sectoids can cast MC if and only if there is a sequence of sectoids <s1, s2, ..., sn> such that s_i can see s_i+1 (s1 is the MC caster here).

(3) Safety Net: All possible ways to prevent the battle from being ended too soon because of a single MCed soildier throwing grenades or something. This also holds for aliens (preventing spamming MC in the first turn and having all aliens MCed).
     For example, showing a message after psi attacks who received the psi attack (like the message showing who god panicked). And making MC successful only after the target got psi attacks for at least two consecutive turns (at the first turn of psi attack an alien or a soldier can only be panicked or berzerked. Next turn, it can be MCed). Or maybe the formula 'panicked or berzerked+psi attack(next turn)=MC(with certain probability)' can be used.
     The idea is to spare a room of period so that you can to something about the psi-attacked soldier, ultimately making the system more stable. With the above rule, still berzerked soldier is incredibly dangerous anyway. Hopefully, one might find a good compromise between the conditions.

(4) Other stuff: Consuming a large amount of energy for casting MC

The reason I really want to handle the psi system is because personally, there is nothing more frightning than watching your soldiers getting psi attacks from nowhere and getting panicked. It really makes a huge scary mood into the game, so it's good. But I think the current psi system is in some cases just too much...

Meanwhile I'll also play games with psi LOS mod on: as cjones has said, I think I had paid enough dues for it 

[Arthanor]

The psiLoS mod is pretty much a hard counter to psi, unfortunately.. I am going through a game with it and, like you, I can barely remember the last time I got psi-attacked.. I think it's too much, actually, since the psi attacks do make up a good chunk of the atmosphere. I am coming up with mod ideas to improve it, but busy with the XAE for now. Most of your suggestions would be great, but sadly can only be handled by new code, not mods :/

What I am thinking to do is tweak the TU cost of psi powers by giving different psi-weapons to aliens as the game progress. LoS is too much of a requirement, and I like the idea of psi working through walls. It's not shooting bullets.. Much like aliens start with pistols and end up with heavy plasmas, they would start with a crappy psi-weapon (maxrange ~10-15, higher TU cost), in mid-game use the vanilla psi-weapon, then in late game use an improved one with lower TU costs, to compensate for the fact that the player probably has a squad full of hi psi-strength troopers (and encourage the player to get one, low psi-strength troopers can be medics/puppets or kept for taking on non-psi enemies).

XCom similarly would have multiple tiers of psi-amps, unlockable through interrogating psi capable aliens of increasing strength.

[TaxxiDriver]

Indeed, many of my thoughts don't seem to work just manipulating the rulesets. I'm now being slowly accustomed to using rulesets 

I think your approach can be quite effective and also doable. Still the chance of significant loss by MC exists but I think the amount of stability by adapting your method is great and it wouldn't harm the original atmosphere of the game.

[KORfan]

I generally don't play with mods, so I don't know about LOS for PSI.

First off, I fire any soldiers with Bravery 10 or 20.  They don't get on the Skyranger, so they don't become a panic or berserk problem.

If someone gets mind controlled too easily (first attempt and we're no where near the aliens or ship), then that means they have a low PSI score.  If they survive the mission, I shove them to the bottom of the queue and they don't fly.  I keep them around in case the aliens just got lucky (one turned out to be a PSI STR 67) or when I know I need to assault some non PSI aliens such as a muton base.

While I'm on a mission, if someone is being MC'd too easily or berserking after panic attacks, I have them drop their weapons and run for the far corner.

[hellrazor]

Dealing with Sectoids in the early game is pretty harsh, as soon as they have a Sectoid Leader with them and Cyberdiscs.
Once you get Power Suits, you can safely engage every Mission which includes Sectoid Leaders and NO Cyberdiscs.

Sectoid Terrorships(-crashsites), Terrorsites and Battleships i usually avoid.
But everything else can be engaged in Power Suits and normal Rifles and normal Grenades, avoid useing Rocket Launcher or even AutoCannons, take a Tank Rocket Launcher with you.

Normal Rifles and Grenades can kill Sectoids easily, helps really to do some filtering early on. Power Suits make you immune to those weaponry.

Once you find a Soldier which gets zapped each turn or maybe 2 Soldiers of this kind, ensure that you do some more mission against Sectoids without Cyberdisc, to determine if the rest of the squad gets still affected. Psi Weak Soldiers get zapped a great deal, so everyone not getting zapped can carry a normal Weapon (Heavy Plasma, Laser Rifle or so).
Then with 1or 2 decoys on board you can safely engage Terrorsites, Terrorships. Maybe even Sectoid Battleships and Bases but i usually avoid this until i screen my guys properly.