OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: nickboom on March 03, 2023, 08:26:49 am

Title: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 03, 2023, 08:26:49 am
Hello, been attempting the mod lately and with a combination of a few restarts and some avid save scumming, I've found myself in promotion 2. I'm around early 1998, March or April I believe and I'm kinda directionless. I have the Black Lotus HQ mission unlocked and most of the other cults are nearly there as well (just need those Base missions to pop). I have two functional bases, one main, one forward with some research capacity, a third is being build up for coverage purposes. Got around 40 total scientists and 21 engineers (wanna get more but I'm only netting about 1 mil per month so I'm holding back) I'm using mostly black ops guns, predominantly the auto snipers. I heard light mini guns are really good so I have a few on backup for close ranged missions and a few other black op guns for rookies who can't hit the side of a barn.

What I'm worried about is that I'm starting to get tritianum items but don't have the means to really produce all too much. I prioritized the vests for obvious reasons but expected the ammo to be free...it was not. Clips feel like they're eaten magically by the game at random and so I'm kinda afraid to produce them despite the large jump in damage since after the vests I can only make a couple. I don't have radar systems up yet nor interceptors of any sort but I do have the dragonfly to transport troops. Also, got lucky and have a small stock of flame gloves and the capability of using them, a few 80+ psi soldiers too, are they worth it? Most of my guns are two handed so keeping it in a quick draw is my best bet but it's a little hard to get in close with my style of play. Only other question I have is if AI units are worth it. I did a little playing ahead to get the outrider and it seemed good but also went down in like a turn of two of consistent fire during the day. Is it better at night?

Finally, should I tackle the Black Lotus HQ mission or continue focusing mostly on research? I heard its not the worst but I also don't enjoy ninja stars going up my ass from three tiles away cause my guys can't squint hard enough to see the dude.

Apologies for the some what sloppy style of writing. I had a lot of questions and didn't really know how to phrase them. The devs seem really active on here so cheers to you! This is one of the best mods for really any game I've ever played. It feels extremely complete my only real complain is that some more direction in the research would be helpful because its hard to figure out what's good or not without just trying random stuff sometimes! But other than that, I love the lore and complex engagements!
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: krautbernd on March 03, 2023, 12:12:15 pm
If you want to "spoil" yourself you can open up the tech tree viewer by pressing "q" in geoscape view. While you certainly play the game without it, it is kind of useful see what you are missing and/or where you want to be going or focussing your research on.

On my last playthrough I got to promotion III around July or August 1999 i think? Depends a bit on the RNG given the prerequesites.

If you are able to adress the Black Lotus HQ you might as well do so, since one of the prerequesites for Promotion III is containing at least one cult, and you cut down on the manor spawns. While alloy ammo is of course nice for the damage boost it provides it is not really necessary for the cults/early game enemies in my oppinion, if you have the option I would go for the armor. But I don't really know what the meta is here (or if there even is a meta you should be concerned about).
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 03, 2023, 12:28:16 pm
In general, your aims should include
Miniguns are really good at their intended range and/or against enemies with way too much armour. Not so good at long ranges or very close quarters where the TU costs are a bit steep. You can even kill several enemies with one volley.

Heavy Tactical Suits, Tritanium Suits and later on M.A.G.M.A. Power Armour are things that will change the tactical game against many non-aliens.

Alloy scarcity is a real concern, and some of the ammo costs are a bit silly. E.g. Spypistol alloy rounds take (relatively) so much it's pretty much a luxury. Loot Hybrid bases, MiB ships and all UFOs you can get your grubby mitts on. :) Due to how the game's damage model works, alloy ammo is a nice boost against moderately armoured enemies, but not a giant improvement against naked critters. Also, note that alloy armour generally has better resistances against alien or other advanced weapons, while conventional armour is better against regular firearms. The increased raw armour values help, but not vastly so. A Heavy Tactical Suit or something with a shield is still a better choice against cultists than plain alloy vests.

I think the mod enforces statistical bullet saving? That's far better than clips being 'eaten' after you fire even a single shot.

Get Ospreys ASAP. Promo III gets you the Kitsune and the Sky... tranports, but that's a bit further off.

I've never used flame gloves myself, but from what I've seen, they're nice for short-range anti-armour work. Kinda suck in open maps, though. I use tasers or mod-modded dart pistols as QD weapons myself.

AIs have a lot of perks, particularly their anti-camo (and specifically anti-ninja) vision. Actual tank chassises are also pretty much indestructible against most human enemies. Outrider looks kinda useless, but I haven't really given it a proper try. And even then, having something take a turn's worth of fire is nothing to scoff at. Especially since AIs can be resurrected unless they get totally destroyed by plasma fire or something similarly powerful.

Black Lotus HQ is relatively okay as far as ninjas go, since they don't have a lot of space to hide. You can use motion scanners or dogs to spot them, or coat all empty corridors in fire and spot them that way.

Note that taking on the HQ and killing off the cult are not the same thing. You can get Promo III and still leave all four of the cults alive.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: krautbernd on March 03, 2023, 12:42:21 pm
Quote from: Juku121 on March 03, 2023, 12:28:16 pm
Note that taking on the HQ and killing off the cult are not the same thing. You can get Promo III and still leave all four of the cults alive.

Which I still think is a bit misleading given the wording of the prerequesite. Really, the player should demonstrate that they are actually able to shut the cults down. "Sure, we could if we wanted to" isn't really a basis on which to award more privileges, given that x-com takes the blame for basically everything else that's happening around the globe regardless of them being able to adress it or not.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 03, 2023, 02:05:48 pm
I don't disagree, though the logic of XCF politics is sometimes quite opaque. When I did my tentative overhaul in the 0.4 period, I mandated killing all four cults for Promo III, and at least one to get promo II. Though my versions of PII and PIII were slightly different.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Chuckebaby on March 03, 2023, 02:30:38 pm
Taking care of the Black lotus will be difficult but it's doable. HQ will not end their game. You'll need to open up another mission which will allow you to capture
an artifact
something to make certain the deed is done. That mission (not the HQ) is pretty difficult.

I feel Lotus was the toughest of all to wipe out.
Just do the HQ and wait for orders.

A little note about HQ. You can try hiding in the upper levels of the drop zone (elevator) but Lotus is on to you, they send guys up to the top to greet you if you stay there.
Another note of importance, The lower elevator doors do not seem to close after the turn, they remain open and only close at the start of "your turn". So you'll need to hide behind the one tile space in each of the 4 corners.
You'll know what I'm talking about.

Typically in XCF all doors close after turn is done, lower elevator doors do not. It makes it more challenging.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 03, 2023, 03:09:42 pm
Is this a recent change? The capturable thing used to be located in the HQ, no extra mission needed. Some research was necessary afterwards, yes.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: krautbernd on March 03, 2023, 04:03:01 pm
Quote from: Chuckebaby on March 03, 2023, 02:30:38 pm
Taking care of the Black lotus will be difficult but it's doable. HQ will not end their game. You'll need to open up another mission which will allow you to capture
an artifact
something to make certain the deed is done. That mission (not the HQ) is pretty difficult.

Yeah, this is news to me. The HQ missions yield the item needed to shut down the cult (not just for Black Lotus, but any cult HQ mission). Are you talking about
the shrine mission or the academy
? Those are not really part of the cult eradication arcs from what I can tell.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 03, 2023, 05:25:43 pm
Whoa, thank you for the responses everyone! Ok, I understand now! I’m making my way to get proper air fighters up and will plot out tackling to the Black Lotus HQ when I can. Also, based on what I saw from the layout (savescumming yay!) it’s all close quarters so the flame gloves will actually be useful.

I do spam weapons of mass destruction, I like dynamite. I think I researched high explosives but can’t buy them till promo III. I always have a cannon bro with HE rounds loaded up cause their ability to do splash damage and just generally clean someone up for a kill is really good. I guess really the last question I have is regarding Black Lotus Avatars, any pointers for them? The first one I fought wasn’t too bad cause I rushed it while it was on the ground so it kept missing its shots (except one, rip dogo) but another one levitated up three floors and proceeded to rinse me and my team of highly trained snipers unloading on it.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 03, 2023, 05:58:22 pm
If you like to spam small HE explosions, Auto-Cannon is where it's at. :)

Avatars are weak to stun damage (actual stun type, not just nonlethal damage). Electric and maybe bio to a somewhat lesser degree. So if I can't bludgeon the pests because they're flying, I'd shoot them with blunt grenades or perhaps shotgun beanbag rounds. Tasers and Taser Cannons might also work, or maybe Cyberweb guns (although those have terrible ergonomics). Dart guns suck and you're nowhere near getting Small Launchers or the like.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 04, 2023, 12:01:36 am
Oooh, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tips, another question, are there any critters really worth researching (as anything besides a backup for score)? I've noticed most of them don't grant much other than the ability to drain energetic plasma from them but I have no use for it yet. The only line I've found to grant value is zombies. The rest don't seem to give much other than the ability to check their stats on mission.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Chuckebaby on March 04, 2023, 12:55:15 am
Quote from: krautbernd on March 03, 2023, 04:03:01 pm
Those are not really part of the cult eradication arcs from what I can tell.

in order to defeat Black Lotus you need to capture
the golden shrine statue
in the outdoor/jungle terrain mission where it is located (inside the stone built pyramid structure). HQ turns the Psychonic amplifier off.

Unless there is some way of bypassing this to open up "Terminate the Black lotus" in Research". I haven't found it. I've had to research the shrine, then that open up Terminate BL .
If not, then what is the purpose of capturing the shrine?

I'm also very open to being wrong.  ;D
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 04, 2023, 01:27:17 am
Quote from: nickboom on March 04, 2023, 12:01:36 am
...are there any critters really worth researching (as anything besides a backup for score)?

The only line I've found to grant value is zombies.
Not sure what said value of Zombies is, but I'll assume it's the unlocking of their story arc and related missions.

Both werecritters and Mongorns unlock a mission type for random generation. Shamblers allow you to start the Shogg arc. Rats and bats can be domesticated. Spikeboars give you Quillbows and Chupacabras can be processed into Zephyr serum. Muckstars provide improved taser ammo. Spiders give spider silk and beetles their shells for two kinds of under-armour.

Quote from: Chuckebaby on March 04, 2023, 12:55:15 am
in order to defeat Black Lotus you need to capture
the golden shrine statue
in the outdoor/jungle terrain mission where it is located (inside the stone built pyramid structure). HQ turns the Psychonic amplifier off.

I've had to research the shrine, then that open up Terminate BL .
If not, then what is the purpose of capturing the shrine?

I'm also very open to being wrong.
You are. :P

The BL jungle shrine is one way to get a troll lady to interrogate and unlock the HQ. The pyramid temple is for killing off the Dagon cult.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Solarius Scorch on March 04, 2023, 12:24:50 pm
Quote from: krautbernd on March 03, 2023, 12:42:21 pm
Which I still think is a bit misleading given the wording of the prerequesite. Really, the player should demonstrate that they are actually able to shut the cults down. "Sure, we could if we wanted to" isn't really a basis on which to award more privileges, given that x-com takes the blame for basically everything else that's happening around the globe regardless of them being able to adress it or not.

To be honest, these conditions evolved a lot over the years. Some of it was related to me getting better (or at least different) ideas, but more commonly it was the engine itself changing and allowing for new things. In this case, I can't remember why I decided to do it this way - perhaps out of caution, not knowing how exactly the campaign will play after eliminating a cult just like that - but it would be easy to change.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Chuckebaby on March 04, 2023, 01:05:02 pm
Your right, my apologies. That is the Church of Dagon HQ. I'm a mess.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Skipeemcgee on March 04, 2023, 10:23:15 pm
I think Xcom should unlock low tier fighter jets a lot earlier, like after promo 2. ik the mig-31 is the first jet you generally get unless you get the cf-105 arrow encounter(so unfortunate that I couldnt get this to happen in my game) but id actually suggest the mig-21 as they cost around 200k and would just use machine guns. thats realistic. a cooler choice would be the f4 or f104 but those woouldnt be so cheap
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 05, 2023, 05:28:27 am
Using a machine gun on a fighter jet, even an old one, is somewhat questionable. But making use of the AK of military airplanes is something I can wholeheartedly support. There are even people who privately own MiG-21s today (unarmed, of course), and fire sales by places like Nigeria.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: krautbernd on March 05, 2023, 02:14:41 pm
Quote from: Juku121 on March 05, 2023, 05:28:27 am
Using a machine gun on a fighter jet, even an old one, is somewhat questionable.

To be fair, .50 is a machine gun caliber and most early (US) jet fighters still used this cartdridge. And strapping handheld infantry weapons to aircraft (especially the AH-6) is a bit of a stretch to begin with. Sure, pintle/door gun mounts exist, but I doubt you can simply strap existing handheld weapons to airborne weapon pylons.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 05, 2023, 02:57:05 pm
Well, these early birds are positively ancient by even MiG-21 standards. The MiG-21 came with an autocannon as standard, even if the capacity to mount a pod with a 12.7mm machine guns was there (and pretty much never actually used).

The consistency problem is that cannons are so much better that you'd have to pretty much go out of your way to arm even a 60s jet with machine guns. I mean, maybe the red tape allows you machine guns and old fighter jets, but no autocannons. That'd be the only scenario where machine guns on MiG-21s would be 'realistic'.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Skipeemcgee on March 05, 2023, 07:31:47 pm
I meant the mig-21's integrated twin barreled 23 millimeter cannon. they can obviously also carry missiles on its two little old hardpoints. I think thats appropriately weak for your first jet, can only carry two missiles total as in only two shots and then you have to go in close and use the cannon, not nearly as fast as the foxhound.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Xylon666Darkstar on March 07, 2023, 11:55:36 pm
The missiles fall under Promo III however. And making them Promo II I feel like would be way to OP balance wise for the tier and time to acquire those vs the cultist air enemies you encounter. More work and a move backwards imo than necessary for balance sake.

However, you can get cannons in Promo II with a bit of tech legwork.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 08, 2023, 12:29:28 am
Oh man, I decided to start tackling some Orison missions and man, that was were a lot of the tech was hidden away xD Those crates have some important stuff in them. Found the heavy cannons and auto cannons!

Oh, I also took out the Black Lotus HQ with little issue, lost a few guys (one poor bastard turned the corner directly into an Avatar while having no TU). Working on the others now and pursuing some other techs, gearing up multiple bases with Osperys (have to train some rookies ugh). Also, the psi weapons don't really seem worth it at promo II stage, at least not against the cults, the armor mitigation for the range and TUs isn't good when they're so lightly armored (a mini gun is just better at such a range) but I imagine for armored cars and the like it'd be good but I'm not there yet.

Got some more questions though! What's a good way of capturing animals? I've tried the electric clubs but high melee units seem to always dodge your hits no matter what. I'm thinking the cannon blunt rounds might work? Also for the Ospery, what configuration do you use for the crew to everyone out and alive? I've tried stacking some scouts up ahead which works except when we land and there's a whole bunch of enemies around. I need to defend myself and the poor dogs/AI units get chewed up. I've also tried placing some rookies up there but they're not strong enough/good enough to clear the units I need to deal with (Their dynamite throwing is pathetic).

I'm thinking maybe placing some higher level guys with shields in front armed for short range might solve my problem? Finally, since it matters more, how does funding work? Is it directly score tied, as in the better you do the more money you get or is it more of a 'don't fuck up' type deal were your funding will gradually go up in pre-setish increments so long as you don't displease the nations.

Thanks again! I appreciate all the advice. I'm having a lot of fun with the game (when my heart isn't stopping because someone threw a grenade).
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Xylon666Darkstar on March 08, 2023, 06:42:52 am
Quote from: nickboom on March 08, 2023, 12:29:28 am

I'm thinking maybe placing some higher level guys with shields in front armed for short range might solve my problem? Finally, since it matters more, how does funding work? Is it directly score tied, as in the better you do the more money you get or is it more of a 'don't fuck up' type deal were your funding will gradually go up in pre-setish increments so long as you don't displease the nations.


Funding is tied to consistent, positive scored months (more the better, even) and your Promotion level (countries fund more when XCOM fully enabled at Promo III). The percentage of funding increasing in a country becomes greater, based on their overall funding. This means countries like USA, Russia, Japan, China, etc able to catapult more chunks with consecutive months of positive score compared to say... Africa nations. Particularly if it's XCOM activity in their region.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Juku121 on March 08, 2023, 06:51:09 am
Honestly, the whole thing where you're allowed aircraft autocannons and even infantry versions if you get lucky, but not RPGs nor C4; the Arrow and Skyraiders but MiGs and Skyrangers are verboten; hell, infantry miniguns but not anti-material rifles... Seems like a bit of a mess to me and I think a fourth promotion would go a long way towards tidying things up.


As to capturing, cannons don't have blunts, grenade launchers do. And these are pretty good unless you absolutely need to not kill the target. Tasers against anything that dodges (ninjas  ;) ). There's a whole thread (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,11075.0.html) with suggestions.

Getting off the craft unharmed usually requires smoke if the landing situation is unfavourable. Shields for the front agents is a good idea. A tank or at least tank-like something at the front is even better. AI units can be resurrected with little trouble, so they're good for that. But Solarius is a sadist and if some cultist chucks a grenade or a pack of dynamite at you on turn 1, there's not much you can do against that. Use sacrificial rookies or dogs, maybe.

As to funding, check out the Ufopaedia (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Country_Funding_(EU)). From experience, it seems that the increases are totally random from +5% to +20%, so once your score is good enough to cover everyone's grievances, you're good to go. I use score-based income myself to make it more interesting.

I don't think promotion levels have anything to do with funding. If they're happy, they throw a random increase at you, which should even out over the large number of countries on the list and the time it takes to play the mod.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: krautbernd on March 08, 2023, 05:06:25 pm
Quote from: Xylon666Darkstar on March 08, 2023, 06:42:52 am
Funding is tied to consistent, positive scored months (more the better, even) and your Promotion level (countries fund more when XCOM fully enabled at Promo III).

How is "Promotion level" tied to funding? There is nothing in the ruleset related to that from what I can tell. MILESTONE_3 and MILESTONE_3_SUMMARY just yield 100 and 0 points respectively.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Xylon666Darkstar on March 09, 2023, 10:55:07 pm
I may be misremembering. Could've sworn being mentioned around these forums saying promotion had an impact on funding in some way.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: Solarius Scorch on March 15, 2023, 11:39:46 am
Quote from: Xylon666Darkstar on March 09, 2023, 10:55:07 pm
I may be misremembering. Could've sworn being mentioned around these forums saying promotion had an impact on funding in some way.

Nope; I don't think there's a way to do that, even if I wanted to.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 23, 2023, 06:58:35 pm
Howdy, another quick question. How do you terminate the church of dagon? I get the high temple mission and even completed it but no statue went into my inventory.
Title: Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
Post by: nickboom on March 23, 2023, 06:59:24 pm
Anddd never mind. I just found it, der.

That's all the basic cults contained! Do love the mortar, so thanks for that suggestion :D