OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 07:26:45 pm

Title: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 07:26:45 pm
I have a fairly simple question.

My current game is nearing the end of 1998 and I am not ready yet. I know there is a way to edit my save game to turn back the clock. I just don't know how to do it. And even if I did I presume that it would probably break all sorts of triggers or something.

Now, there is a mod that lets you start 2 years early. (https://openxcom.old.mod.io/start-early-for-mod-x-com-files#) But obviously installing that in the middle of a running game won't do nothing.

So my questions are:

1. How do I edit my savegame to turn the clock back.
2. If I install that mod AND edit my save game will that combination actually make it so that everything works properly? Or will it break my game in hilarious ways?
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 08, 2023, 08:02:29 pm
See here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10565.msg146323.html#msg146323).

In brief, you either edit your save every month or make a full overhaul. No one-time fix.

Looking at the mod, it doesn't change several time-sensitive files (at the very least event and alien race appearance breakpoints), so you'd probably end up with a minor mess if you used that.


You probably also have a minor manorpocalypse going, which would be unaffected by any month changes.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 08:10:37 pm
See here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10565.msg146323.html#msg146323).

In brief, you either edit your save every month or make a full overhaul. No one-time fix.
Do you mean that every time the game changes over into a new month I would have to make a new save and than edit that save?

I was thinking of just taking the months passed in my save and shaving 12 off from that. I assumed that would give me another year.

Will that not work? If so why? Does the game save the real date somewhere and will overwrite it?

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Looking at the mod, it doesn't change several time-sensitive files (at the very least event and alien race appearance breakpoints), so you'd probably end up with a minor mess if you used that.
You mean to say that the mod is no good? Or that it's just not good for mid game adding?
If the former is the case what would I need to do to fix it so that it's actually good for when I start my next game?

I presume it's just a matter of going into event and mission scripts and shifting all the dates there forward by 12 x number of years.

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You probably also have a minor manorpocalypse going, which would be unaffected by any month changes.
What is a manorpocalypse? I am not sure what this term means.

For reference, in my save I have already cleaned up the 4 main cults (Dagon, Red Dawn, EXALT and Lotus) and am now in the process of cleaning up the various minor cults like the apocalypse thing. But I won't be able to do those in the months I have left.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 08:20:49 pm
I just tested my theory by editing my save file so that the MonthsPassed variable is changed from 21 to 9 (-12) and passing the time until the end of the month.
In my next save made that new month the variable is 10.

I assume this means that save bought me another year. Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 08, 2023, 09:58:48 pm
Do you mean that every time the game changes over into a new month I would have to make a new save and than edit that save?

I was thinking of just taking the months passed in my save and shaving 12 off from that. I assumed that would give me another year.
It should, but you'll be stuck with the exact same position wrt time-enabled stuff for a full year. Most people would get bored, the mod is long enough as it is.

Cutting down 12 months in the save is okay if you just want a time out. Usually, what players wish for with an earlier start is for all the stuff to be somewhat evenly distributed over the extra year(s).

You mean to say that the mod is no good? Or that it's just not good for mid game adding?
I don't know how good it is, never tried it. But I know it's incomplete.

If the former is the case what would I need to do to fix it so that it's actually good for when I start my next game?
Edit every file that references months passed and add 1-2 years. At least eventScripts_XCOMFILES.rul, alienMissions_XCOMFILES.rul and alienRaces_XCOMFILES.rul in addition to what's there already.

What is a manorpocalypse? I am not sure what this term means.
Search for 'manor'. For instance, this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10960.0.html), this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10965.0.html) and this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10781.0.html).

For reference, in my save I have already cleaned up the 4 main cults (Dagon, Red Dawn, EXALT and Lotus) and am now in the process of cleaning up the various minor cults like the apocalypse thing. But I won't be able to do those in the months I have left.
In that case, unless you're overrun with leftover manors, that's not a problem. You can continue cleaning up Syndicate, Apocalypse and play with MiB abd Hybrids for however long you wish. It's not as if the aliens are active 24/7, and you likely need some variety in your mission roster or you'll go nuts. :P

The big question is if you're getting a passable air game going, plus enough armour, weapons, agents and tactics to kick alien ass.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 10:10:46 pm
It should, but you'll be stuck with the exact same position wrt time-enabled stuff for a full year. Most people would get bored, the mod is long enough as it is.

Cutting down 12 months in the save is okay if you just want a time out. Usually, what players wish for with an earlier start is for all the stuff to be somewhat evenly distributed over the extra year(s).
Honestly I think that the game is already paced perfectly. I just want to have a bit more time in between killing the 4 chief cults and the invasion to prepare and build up and stuff. And just for general cleanup, research etc.

Like, a year of calm before the 2nd chapter so to speak.

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I don't know how good it is, never tried it. But I know it's incomplete.
Edit every file that references months passed and add 1-2 years. At least eventScripts_XCOMFILES.rul, alienMissions_XCOMFILES.rul and alienRaces_XCOMFILES.rul in addition to what's there already.
Search for 'manor'. For instance, this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10960.0.html), this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10965.0.html) and this (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10781.0.html).
Speaking of that, what would I need to do to make that into a submod? As opposed to editing the game files.

Edit: I only found the word month in eventScripts_XCOMFILES.rul and missionScripts_XCOMFILES.rul. Those other two files do not contain any reference to the word month.

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In that case, unless you're overrun with leftover manors, that's not a problem. You can continue cleaning up Syndicate, Apocalypse and play with MiB abd Hybrids for however long you wish. It's not as if the aliens are active 24/7, and you likely need some variety in your mission roster or you'll go nuts. :P

The big question is if you're getting a passable air game going, plus enough armour, weapons, agents and tactics to kick alien ass.
That's the oddest thing. I have the Arrow but can't get aircraft going until I get promotion 3. And I can't get promotion 3 until I end all the secondary cults. I swear back when I last plaid killing the 4 main cults was enough. But apparently not.

So it's September 98 and the 4 main cults are dead but I have no airpower.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 08, 2023, 10:22:15 pm
Speaking of that, what would I need to do to make that into a submod? As opposed to editing the game files.
Editing the game files, then cutting them down to the smallest amount of changes possible, then packaging them into a mod. See my Expanded Markers submod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10598.0.html) for an example.

And maintaining said submod. :-\

And I can't get promotion 3 until I end all the secondary cults. I swear back when I last plaid killing the 4 main cults was enough. But apparently not.
No, even one main cult is enough. But there are additional, non-cult-related requirements. See here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10878.msg150677.html#msg150677), for example.

So it's September 98 and the 4 main cults are dead but I have no airpower.
Without Promo III you probably lack ground equipment as well. How are you agents coming along, stat- and transformation-wise?

I only found the word month in eventScripts_XCOMFILES.rul and missionScripts_XCOMFILES.rul. Those other two files do not contain any reference to the word month.
They don't, but they do contain alien race assignments by month. It's lines like these:
Code: [Select]
    raceWeights:
      0:
          STR_SECTOID: 50
          STR_FLOATER: 20
          STR_CHASER: 20
          STR_CHTONITE: 10
      14:
          STR_SECTOID: 40
          STR_CHASER: 10
          STR_SNAKEMAN: 5
          STR_SNAKEMAN_SALAMANDRON: 5
          STR_FLOATER: 20
          STR_CHTONITE: 10
That 14 is month 14, i.e. February '98. No Snakeman scientists before then, and you just moved that into Feb '99. Not too bad, but these numbers go up to about 40 or so.

In theory, alienDeployments_XCOMFILES.rul might also have some stuff tied to 'months passed', but I don't think it's the case for current XCF.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 10:44:40 pm
Editing the game files, then cutting them down to the smallest amount of changes possible, then packaging them into a mod. See my Expanded Markers submod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10598.0.html) for an example.
I'll have to take a look at that. Maintenance is something I'll have to do anyway and have been doing ever since I started tweaking the main mod months ago.

I can't help it, you see. I am a programmer so fiddling with games and mods to make them my own is kind of my thing.  ;D

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And maintaining said submod. :-\
No, even one main cult is enough. But there are additional, non-cult-related requirements. See here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,10878.msg150677.html#msg150677), for example.
Ah, that is what I am missing! That's why in my last game I got the fighters so early. I got really lucky with underwater missions last time round.

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Without Promo III you probably lack ground equipment as well. How are you agents coming along, stat- and transformation-wise?
I have the RPK, the FAL and lots of explosives.

You would be surprised just how much can be solved with those if you are smart about using smoke.

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They don't, but they do contain alien race assignments by month. It's lines like these:
That 14 is month 14, i.e. February '98. No Snakeman scientists before then, and you just moved that into Feb '99. Not too bad, but these numbers go up to about 40 or so.
So I need to move all those dates up by +12?

Basically right now my goal is to create a mod that adds 1 extra year before the invasion. So that it triggers in 2000. I'll move the start date back later.

Right now I modified the mission scripts and am moving on to event scripts next.
I am pushing back anything that is related to the aliens by a year. But leaving everything else behind to leave a nice buffer gap.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 08, 2023, 10:50:11 pm
I can't help it, you see. I am a programmer so fiddling with games and mods to make them my own is kind of my thing.
I am not, and I can't help it either. ;D

Although I know at least one programmer who messes around with a game and won't ever look at the code since that's too much like work. At best, he'll lend his expertise in a discussion.

I have the RPK, the FAL and lots of explosives.
No BlackOps weapons? You should have some of the staples from getting to Promo II.

Grenade launchers are also pretty versatile and useful.

So I need to move all those dates up by +12?
Yeah. Aliens are probably what should just be pushed back completely. Event triggers you might have to show some consideration to.

Basically right now my goal is to create a mod that adds 1 extra year before the invasion. So that it triggers in 2000. I'll move the start date back later.
Start date is the easiest thing to move if you're done with the rest.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 11:03:07 pm
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Although I know at least one programmer who dabbles with a game and won't ever look at the code since that's too much like work. At best, he'll lend his expertise in a discussion.
It depends on your entry into the profession. My self, I started programming before I discovered video games existed. So for me programming is less of a job and more of a calling.

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No BlackOps weapons?
I am not impressed by them. They just aren't that much of an upgrade over what you already have.

I have this giant worksheet where I copied over all  the weapon stats for the different weapons. And once you actually put them side by side with the other weapons they just aren't that great.

For example, take the BlackOps Assault Rifle.

It costs 10K to buy at a stage when you've already invested into other guns. And for your trouble you very little extra damage. Just +4 damage over 5.56 guns, +2 over 7.62 OTAN guns and + 0 damage over 7.62x39 guns. Which is at best a 15% bonus and at worst actually nothing. In fact, 7.62 OTAN guns outdamage it with skilled agents.

And sure you get +1 shot but you pay for that with worse accuracy. So it's at best an equal trade,

So at best it's a minor upgrade rather than a major one. I actually prefer to just stick with a mix of the FAL or Galil and G36 rifles until I get energy weapons. And than I switch over to those.


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Yeah. Aliens are probably what should just be pushed back completely. Event triggers you might have to show some consideration to.
Start date is the easiest thing to move if you're done with the rest.
I just have to figure out what files to change. After that it's easy.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 11:26:53 pm
Also, why is it that those alien missions start at 0 rather than the start date of 25? Could it be that the 0 in alienMissions_XCOMFILES refers to 25? As in that those are months from start of invasion as opposed to months from start of game?
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 08, 2023, 11:44:07 pm
Also, why is it that those alien missions start at 0 rather than the start date of 25? Could it be that the 0 in alienMissions_XCOMFILES refers to 25? As in that those are months from start of invasion as opposed to months from start of game?
No, it's first of all a sanity check and secondly there are rare alien missions flown before the invasion proper starts. It's just that you most likely miss those UFOs due to poor radar coverage, no interceptors and slow transports.

It depends on your entry into the profession. My self, I started programming before I discovered video games existed. So for me programming is less of a job and more of a calling.
That's what the slavedrivers in the video game industry love. :-\

I am not impressed by them. They just aren't that much of an upgrade over what you already have.
IMO, Smartguns, Smartrifles, G11s and BO Sniper Rifles are among the best early-mid-game all-purpose kinetic weapons.

For example, take the BlackOps Assault Rifle.

It costs 10K to buy at a stage when you've already invested into other guns. And for your trouble you very little extra damage. Just +4 damage over 5.56 guns, +2 over 7.62 OTAN guns and + damage over 7.62x39 guns. Which is at best a 15% bonus and at worst actually nothing. In fact, 7.62 OTAN guns outdamage it with skilled agents.

And sure you get +1 shot but you pay for that with worse accuracy. So it's at best an equal trade,
Assault rifles are the weakest of BO offerings. The BO Assault Rifle is mostly crap. Technically, you do get two aimed shots and a significantly better auto-shot, but G11 and BO SMGs do the latter much better, and the former is offset by abysmal aimed range.

If you want a BO counterpart to the FN FAL, it's the BO Rifle rifle. Biggest things in its favour are M16-tier TU costs, 80% armour penetration (like 5.56 rounds and not 7.62 rounds with their 90%, for some reason), and the ability to transition to alloy ammo. Not a lot, but not nothing either. Not much of an upgrade over a 5.56 rifle, though. It's the Smartrifle that's the real deal.

But, well, generally it's the handguns, SMGs, miniguns and Smartweapons that are best in class. Or only, for the miniguns. And the sniper rifles, of course. Only the SVD provides competition to those until quite a bit later.

You can get the BO Assault LMG without the licence, and it's as good as any historical weapon for both maneuver and sustained fire. M-60 and MG3 beat it at long-range, but if you want to move your machine gunners around, it and the two upgrades are better.

Damage-wise, alloy bullets are what's supposed to tide BO weapons over. But these are kind of a pain to make, so I like Pulse weapons and their purchasable alloy ammo. These are kind of in the future, though.

Basically, there's a lot of variety in the BO lineup, and they do several things much better than historical weapons. GPMG and assault rifle roles are not among those, sadly.

I actually prefer to just stick with a mix of the FAL or Galil and G36 rifles until I get energy weapons.
Eh, there are better things in-between. UAC guns, Pulse guns, various specialty weapons, even the space-cat rifle. And energy weapons are not always better.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 08, 2023, 11:55:20 pm
No, it's first of all a sanity check and secondly there are rare alien missions flown before the invasion proper starts. It's just that you most likely miss those UFOs due to poor radar coverage, no interceptors and slow transports.
I see. So what do I do with those numbers than? I have to leave something at 0 than but also move things up...
Do I just move everything that is past 25 by +12 and leave the rest?
Or do I maybe move those up and than space the others out a bit to fill the gap?

What do you think?

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That's what the slavedrivers in the video game industry love. :-\
Actually they don't. Because the sort of people who say this are the sort that know their job and want to be paid accordingly.

That's why I work for finance.

Gaming companies like people who are young, impressionable and think video games are the coolest thing ever and are willing to work them self to the bone for the glory of working on one.
Also known as suckers.

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IMO, Smartguns, Smartrifles, G11s and BO Sniper Rifles are among the best early-mid-game all-purpose kinetic weapons.
Assault rifles are the weakest of BO offerings. The BO Assault Rifle is mostly crap. Technically, you do get two aimed shots and a significantly better auto-shot, but G11 and BO SMGs do the latter much better, and the former is offset by abysmal aimed range.
The G11 suffers from a bad aimed range (33 vs 200 for all other rifles) and really bad damage (22 vs 24 - 30 for other rifles). It's basically a heavy SMG more than a rifle.

I generally go with the FAL or Galil and G36 rifles for my main troops, PKM's as my machinegun (2 per squad) and SVD's for snipers. The later because I tend to use snap shots a lot more than aimed shots for snipers and they really shine in that role. And than for support weapons I go with a Glock 18 for each trooper that has a rocket or grenade launcher or such.

My platoon typically consists of 2 squads each with 1 sniper, 1 machinegun, 1 XM29, 1 Grenadier (glock 18 + launcher) and 4 riflemen. With RPG-7's and TNT being thrown into the osprey for use as needed.

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If you want a BO counterpart to the FN FAL, it's the BO Rifle rifle. Biggest things in its favour are M16-tier TU costs, 80% armour penetration (like 5.56 rounds and not 7.62 rounds with their 90%, for some reason), and the ability to transition to alloy ammo. Not a lot, but not nothing either. Not much of an upgrade over a 5.56 rifle, though. It's the Smartrifle that's the real deal.
I have to look into it. I've always compared it to snipers and it came up short. I didn't think to compare it to BR's.

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But, well, generally it's the handguns, SMGs, miniguns and Smartweapons that are best in class. Or only, for the miniguns. And the sniper rifles, of course. Only the SVD provides competition to those until quite a bit later.
Aside from the SMG's all of those require powered armor to really make the most of them. Especially the miniguns. And at the point you have PA you have energy weapons which are just better.

And I don't use SMG's other than as a sidearm for rocketeers and grenadiers. And for those I want something one handed so that disqualifies basically everything.

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You can get the BO Assault LMG without the licence, and it's as good as any historical weapon for both maneuver and sustained fire. M-60 and MG3 beat it at long-range, but if you want to move your machine gunners around, it and the two upgrades are better.
Three words: Kalashnikov's machine gun

You an get it early and cheap. And it is just the perfect middle ground between the heavies (M60 / MG3) and the Minimi.

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Damage-wise, alloy bullets are what's supposed to tide BO weapons over. But these are kind of a pain to make, so I like Pulse weapons and their purchasable alloy ammo. These are kind of in the future, though.
Exactly. Like, by the time you can get a reliable supply of the good ammo there are better options out there.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 09, 2023, 12:48:17 am
So what do I do with those numbers than? I have to leave something at 0 than but also move things up...
Do I just move everything that is past 25 by +12 and leave the rest?
Or do I maybe move those up and than space the others out a bit to fill the gap?
I'd do the last one.

The G11 suffers from a bad aimed range (33 vs 200 for all other rifles) and really bad damage (22 vs 24 - 30 for other rifles). It's basically a heavy SMG more than a rifle.
G11 is not supposed to use aimed shot. If someone is more than 33 tiles away, use your snipers or machine guns. But their damage scales with Bravery, so that 22 is actually more likely 26-28, and could even be 32 once you get your agents' Bravery up. And the auto-shot is crazy, at ranges comparable to other rifles' snap shots. Just try it.

I generally go with the FAL or Galil and G36 rifles for my main troops, PKM's as my machinegun (2 per squad) and SVD's for snipers. The later because I tend to use snap shots a lot more than aimed shots for snipers and they really shine in that role.
I don't like the sprites for any of these, so not using them. :)

But the SVD's three snaps are the one big thing that rivals BO Snipers. The latter do have a much nicer armour multiplier (75% vs 90%) and long-range shots. SVD does better vs cultists in a barrel, BO Sniper vs the big threats.

Honestly, the SVD being able to shoot thrice while the PSG barely goes twice is pretty much an aberration. But the mod isn't made with an eye towards RL authenticity, so it is what it is and SVD is one of the best early sniper rifles.

And than for support weapons I go with a Glock 18 for each trooper that has a rocket or grenade launcher or such.
Why not P90s or BO SMGs, if you want to throw lots of lead?

The 9mm guns have such low damage that anything that actually looks like armour tends to make them pretty useless. I prefer BO SMGs, Matebas if I know the enemy's totally naked, or BO Pistols/Smartpistols for accuracy, speed and respectable power.

I'' have to look into it. But as said, I am unconvinced.
Smartrifles give you two aimed shots per turn that are on par with any other assault rifle accuracy-wise (unlike the woeful BO AR), snap shots that are also among the best, auto-shot that's halfway to the G11's. It's the most generally ergonomic kinetic rifle around. Does come with poorer 90% penetration and middling damage until alloy ammo.

Aside from the SMG's all of those require powered armor to really make the most of them. Especially the miniguns. And at the point you have PA you have energy weapons which are just better.
Uh, it's the Macro SMG that's excessively heavy. Light miniguns weigh 26 loaded with ammo, 2 more than a PKM. And even the big miniguns have been used by many a player long before any power armour starts even being a dream. Some people swear by them. :)

Smartweapons, sniper rifles, machine guns weigh as much as anything similar.

And I don't use SMG's other than as a sidearm for rocketeers and grenadiers. And for those I want something one handed so that disqualifies basically everything.
BO SMG. One-handed, long bursts for emergency situations, passable damage. Better than any other one-handed SMG up to that point.

Three words: Kalashnikov's machine gun

You an get it early and cheap. And it is just the perfect middle ground between the heavies (M60 / MG3) and the Minimi.
Can't argue with early and cheap.

But vs the BO ALMG it has very similar damage, can fire twice per turn without freezing in place, and throws 4 snap rounds vs 3-4, albeit at only two targets. Has a bit of extra effective snap range, too. The twice-per-turn autofire alone makes it better for me. And that's the weakest of the three BO machine guns.

I also like the sprites far better than the historical guns'.

Exactly. Like, by the time you can get a reliable supply of the good ammo there are better options out there.
Yeah, that's the big problem with alloy ammo being the great equalizer. You get UAC guns and Pulse weapons before you get a reliable supply of it, and those are just miles better. Especially now with the Tritanium Matrix change.

Actually they don't. Because the sort of people who say this are the sort that know their job and want to be paid accordingly.

That's why I work for finance.

Gaming companies like people who are young, impressionable and think video games are the coolest thing ever and are willing to work them self to the bone for the glory of working on one.
Gaming companies like people who want to make games above making money. I'd say it's their calling, wouldn't you?

I'm all too aware of the culture gap between srsface software engineering, even financial, and what goes on in game companies. Most programmers are aware of their worth, and act accordingly. Gaming is like a friggin Wild West compared to that.

Also, you don't need to be young for this bullshit to work. Wasn't it Chris Avellone who essentially got kicked from being a founder and cried to the world about how hard his life was afterwards, despite being a minor celebrity (and other, less pleasant things besides). There's also no shortage of indies working on weekends and in spare hours, or for peanuts, trying to make their dream game a reality along with some money to show for it instead of sinking their savings into it.

OTAN
Hmm, this is exactly backwards. Did the French do that on purpose? :o
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 09, 2023, 01:10:50 am
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G11 is not supposed to use aimed shot. If someone is more than 33 tiles away, use your snipers or machine guns. But their damage scales with Bravery, so that 22 is actually more likely 26-28, and could even be 32 once you get your agents' Bravery up. And the auto-shot is crazy, at ranges comparable to other rifles' snap shots. Just try it.
I shall. I am not really in the habit of using auto fire ever except in very rare situations like when swarmed by zombines. So if there is something that makes it viable I am intrigued.

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Honestly, the SVD being able to shoot thrice while the PSG barely goes twice is pretty much an aberration. But the mod isn't made with an eye towards RL authenticity, so it is what it is and SVD is one of the best early sniper rifles.
Not really. They are different kinds of weapons. The PSG, Arisaka and others are snipers. They are designed for long range single shots using aimed fire to pop big dangerous targets.
The SVD and QBZ (both are equal really) are DMR's. They are meant to use snap shots to pop cultists and lesser aliens at a distance where your rifles can't reliably reach.

It's two different niches really and thus two different stat types.

Now, personally I don't ever bother with the proper snipers but that's just me. Like, I can appreciate the role even if I don't have a big use for it.

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Why not P90s or BO SMGs, if you want to throw lots of lead?
They are two handed. And that means you have to drop the launcher or other big gun when using them if you want to hit anything.
The Glock 18 and Callico are superior in that respect in that they are one handed and thus suffer no accuracy penalty when used as an offhand weapon to something else.

And I only ever use SMG's as an offhand weapon.

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The 9mm guns have such low damage that anything that actually looks like armour tends to make them pretty useless. I prefer BO SMGs, Matebas if I know the enemy's totally naked, or BO Pistols/Smartpistols for accuracy, speed and respectable power.
In my use anything that looks like it has armor is going to eat what ever the soldiers primary weapon is. Typically that being either a RPG-7, Grenade Launcher or something similar. The SMG is only there as an offhand weapon for when your RPG-7 tank hunter runs into a random knife cultist that isn't worth wasting a rocket on.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow as it is past my bed time.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 09, 2023, 02:19:32 am
Not really. They are different kinds of weapons. The PSG, Arisaka and others are snipers.
...
The SVD and QBZ (both are equal really) are DMR's.
...
It's two different niches really and thus two different stat types.
I was speaking about RL. These are both semi-auto precision rifles chambered in roughly comparable full battle rifle cartridges. There is no way the extra weight on the PSG-1 makes it take 50% longer to fire when that's less than the biggest difference between any 5.56 and 7.62x51 gun in the game. If one of them was bolt action, or .50 cal, yeah. The in-game PSG-1 snap shot is much closer to the generic .308 BA than any semi-auto.

The PSG-1 appears to want to act as a bolt action, like the M24 or CZ 700.

Now, personally I don't ever bother with the proper snipers but that's just me. Like, I can appreciate the role even if I don't have a big use for it.
Proper sniper rifles actually have a somewhat unexpected role: can opener. They do as much and perhaps more damage as big cannon-type weapons, but can actually hit the big bads with reliability. You will appreciate proper sniper rifles when some hardass armoured enemy suddenly turns around the corner, long range or short range.

I also like to kill enemies three screens away in open terrain, but that's just me as well. :)

They are two handed. And that means you have to drop the launcher or other big gun when using them if you want to hit anything.
What makes you think the BO SMG is two-handed? I don't see any coloured 2-s on the sprite. The P90 is indeed two-handed, but only mildly so, 15% accuracy loss vs the usual 50%.

In my use anything that looks like it has armor is going to eat what ever the soldiers primary weapon is. Typically that being either a RPG-7, Grenade Launcher or something similar. The SMG is only there as an offhand weapon for when your RPG-7 tank hunter runs into a random knife cultist that isn't worth wasting a rocket on.
I find it more useful to shoot the mook with someone else. Handguns are for emergencies, like running completely out of ammo, or four agents in a van vs a medium zombie horde, when reloading may not be an option and shooting naked zombies in the face with buckshot revolvers at point blank is as good if not better than shotguns. Or tasers, which are my sidearm of choice for people with non-specialty weapons.

SMGs are a sort of compromise, hoping that among all the bullets being sprayed, there are one or two that hit and roll good damage. And BO pistols/Magnums can actually hit people at a distance and do damage even through moderate armour.

Although the Macro SMG is something else again. Just deletes enemies close-medium range.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 09, 2023, 07:19:40 pm
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Uh, it's the Macro SMG that's excessively heavy. Light miniguns weigh 26 loaded with ammo, 2 more than a PKM. And even the big miniguns have been used by many a player long before any power armour starts even being a dream. Some people swear by them. :)
The PKM is more accurate though. Like far more if the stats are to be believed. Guess I newer gave it a fair chance though. I shall do that.

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But vs the BO ALMG it has very similar damage, can fire twice per turn without freezing in place, and throws 4 snap rounds vs 3-4, albeit at only two targets. Has a bit of extra effective snap range, too. The twice-per-turn autofire alone makes it better for me. And that's the weakest of the three BO machine guns.
The PKM needs just 25% TU for a snap shot vs the BOALMG's 35%. So that's 4 vs 2. Or more realistically 3 vs 2 if you are moving. But MG's are supposed to be full auto anyway. And for that it's just 45% vs 50% for the PKM so I guess you could get an extra shot out of it. But like it just isn't a strait massive upgrade.

In fact, that's my view on most BlackOps gear. It's better but not better enough to justify rebuying my inventory.

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Gaming companies like people who want to make games above making money. I'd say it's their calling, wouldn't you?

I'm all too aware of the culture gap between srsface software engineering, even financial, and what goes on in game companies. Most programmers are aware of their worth, and act accordingly. Gaming is like a friggin Wild West compared to that.

Also, you don't need to be young for this bullshit to work. Wasn't it Chris Avellone who essentially got kicked from being a founder and cried to the world about how hard his life was afterwards, despite being a minor celebrity (and other, less pleasant things besides). There's also no shortage of indies working on weekends and in spare hours, or for peanuts, trying to make their dream game a reality along with some money to show for it instead of sinking their savings into it.
There is nothing foolish about following your dreams. But only a fool allows them to be co opted by corporate greed.

It basically boils down to the difference between a job and a profession. A profession is what you do. But a job is so much more. It includes the working environment, wage and all sorts of other factors. And that's the key here.

Programming is my dream profession, but I don't have a dream job. Hell I'd work for the aliens if the pay was good.

But some people have a dream Job. And in every industry where this is true which includes video games, the military, emergency services and medicine to name a few the employers realize that if they can attract this sort of people they can hijack that dream latching onto it like a zombie parasite and suck the soul out of that person who for a variety of reasons will refuse to see his dream has become a nightmare.

So in short, follow your dreams but do it on your terms.

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Hmm, this is exactly backwards. Did the French do that on purpose? :o
It's just how the language works. OTAN stands for Organisation du traité de l'Atlantique nord or "Organization of the treaty of the North Atlantic".

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Yeah, that's the big problem with alloy ammo being the great equalizer. You get UAC guns and Pulse weapons before you get a reliable supply of it, and those are just miles better. Especially now with the Tritanium Matrix change.
Except for the UAC rifle. That thing is bad. Like three round bursts instead of snap fire and inaccurate. Ewww....

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I also like the sprites far better than the historical guns'.
I actually like the real world stuff more. It just gives me that feeling of playing as the plucky humans taking the fight to the aliens one angry ball of lead at a time.

I was speaking about RL. These are both semi-auto precision rifles chambered in roughly comparable full battle rifle cartridges. There is no way the extra weight on the PSG-1 makes it take 50% longer to fire when that's less than the biggest difference between any 5.56 and 7.62x51 gun in the game. If one of them was bolt action, or .50 cal, yeah. The in-game PSG-1 snap shot is much closer to the generic .308 BA than any semi-auto.
Good point. In my mind I confused the PSG with the Walter 2000.

Entirely my bad. The PSG is basically a sniper G3. So it should be equivalent to the SVD.

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Proper sniper rifles actually have a somewhat unexpected role: can opener. They do as much and perhaps more damage as big cannon-type weapons, but can actually hit the big bads with reliability. You will appreciate proper sniper rifles when some hardass armoured enemy suddenly turns around the corner, long range or short range.
I understand that. It's just that I tend to play very defensively and use a lot of smoke and ambushes. So when someone does pop out of a corner I typically have 3-4 and up to 16 guys and at least one heavy weapon waiting.

And the PKM is doing gods work.

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I also like to kill enemies three screens away in open terrain, but that's just me as well. :)
I prefer to use smoke to make sure people can't see me half a screen away. :)

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What makes you think the BO SMG is two-handed? I don't see any coloured 2-s on the sprite.
Good point. I could have sworn that it was but apparently not. I must have confused it with the UAC SMG.

Still, maybe there is something that I don't see here because stat vise it just isn't that great without the special ammo.
I mean, look at it compared to the Glock 18.

GunDamageMagazineAccurcy (aimed)Accurcy (snap)Accurcy (auto)Shots per turn (aimed)Shots per turn (snap)Shots per turn (auto)
Glock 18223372%72%50%564
Blackops SMG2530-65%50%-32

So while the Glock 18 does a tiny bit less damage it is more accurate AND gets twice as many shots per turn. This makes it the ideal backup sidearm.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the Glock 18 is the ideal SMG in this game if armor penetration is not a concern.

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I find it more useful to shoot the mook with someone else. Handguns are for emergencies, like running completely out of ammo, or four agents in a van vs a medium zombie horde, when reloading may not be an option and shooting naked zombies in the face with buckshot revolvers at point blank is as good if not better than shotguns. Or tasers, which are my sidearm of choice for people with non-specialty weapons.
My general rule is that everyone who can carry one (weight limit) gets a taser. And everyone with a weapon that is unwise to fire at close range gets a SMG as a sidearm. So that's basically my RPG and grenade launcher guys.

As for zombies I tend to clear them out using the good old firing line. As in line up all my guys next to a wall (or inside a vehicle) and put the machinegunners up front. The PKM once more doing gods work here.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 09, 2023, 08:55:42 pm
Edit:
The PKM needs just 25% TU for a snap shot vs the BOALMG's 35%. So that's 4 vs 2. Or more realistically 3 vs 2 if you are moving. But MG's are supposed to be full auto anyway. And for that it's just 45% vs 50% for the PKM so I guess you could get an extra shot out of it. But like it just isn't a strait massive upgrade.
That BOALMG 'snap' shot fires twice, though. And doubling your fire rate is a pretty massive upgrade in my book.

In fact, that's my view on most BlackOps gear. It's better but not better enough to justify rebuying my inventory.
That is indeed true. But I'm a pack rat, so I do it anyway. :D

The PKM is more accurate though. Like far more if the stats are to be believed.
Yes, the PKM and other machine guns (especially the two GPMGs) are better for long range. Miniguns are not universal weapons. But at up to 20, maybe 25 tiles, miniguns put out an enormous amount of shots with only moderate accuracy loss. If you're kneeling, that is. Miniguns have a giant kneeling bonus.

You can fire 24 shots and maneuver quite comfortably, instead of 6 and maneuver or 12 and freeze for the PKM. Or even 30 with less moving around for the heavy minigun. And if someone comes close, it's basically a shotgun. Finally, it also shreds armour like no tomorrow. You can kill Sectopods by minigunning them several times.

I wouldn't replace every machine gun with miniguns. But I definitely like taking one or two along.

Except for the UAC rifle. That thing is bad. Like three round bursts instead of snap fire and inaccurate.
These three round snaps are more accurate than most autofire. Long-range accuracy isn't very good, but ~75% at the edge of vision range for 100 FA agents is passable. You also also get three-round aimed shots. All in all, this thing has a niche, albeit one that already has lots of other weapons in it.

I actually like the real world stuff more. It just gives me that feeling of playing as the plucky humans taking the fight to the aliens one angry ball of lead at a time.
I like the BO weapons because I'm kinda stuck with my headcanon of these being custom-made X-Com weapons instead of shadow ops standard issue. I think back when I did a minor overhaul, I actually named them X-Com Rifle, etc.

It's just that I tend to play very defensively and use a lot of smoke and ambushes. So when someone does pop out of a corner I typically have 3-4 and up to 16 guys and at least one heavy weapon waiting.

I prefer to use smoke to make sure people can't see me half a screen away.
The sniper rifle works from the front, from the back, can shoot more rounds, holds more ammo, and can be used for sniping as well. It's a more generalist weapon.

It's not as if sniper rifles are exclusive with smoke. Sit your agents in a smoke cloud, send some out to scout, cover them in more smoke, have the snipers delete whatever they find. They're out of vision range anyway, smoke won't hinder them any further. Classic X-Com scout-sniper tactics. The only problem is accidentally biting off more than your snipers can chew.

I mean, yeah, rocket launchers and similar are also good to have. I also tend to carry at least one heavy weapon, but I find sniper rifles more convenient and useful in more situations. YMMV.

And the PKM is doing gods work.
Well, to be honest, I play with BO machine guns that all have 3-round snaps and 6-round full auto fire. PKM just doesn't compare. None of the other light machine guns do, only the GPMGs for long-range autofire.

Still, maybe there is something that I don't see here because stat vise it just isn't that great without the special ammo.
I mean, look at it compared to the Glock 18.
...
So while the Glock 18 does a tiny bit less damage it is more accurate AND gets twice as many shots per turn.
What's missing in this table is that each of these 'snap' shots fires off three rounds, and the auto does six. So the actual number of shots is thrice that, 50% more than the Glock. Less targets, but I doubt your 2-round bursts are instant kills the vast majority of the time.

Also, 25 vs 22 damage is in one of the most armour-sensitive ranges of the game. Hitting something for +3-6 damage can be quite significant.

Accuracy is really not much different except for aimed shots. And if you want to kill something with aimed pistol shots, a Glock isn't going to cut it. That would need one of the big handguns. Me, I get a rifleman to do that instead.

As for zombies I tend to clear them out using the good old firing line.
That's fine when you actually have enough men for it, but four guys in a van isn't it. They should stack everything on them to avoid reloading while a Zombie is gnawing off their face. I found that to be the only instance where the pocket shotguns actually worked for me.

There is nothing foolish about following your dreams. But only a fool allows them to be co opted by corporate greed.
Happens to game devs even without any corporates being involved. Hobby projects turned into failed jobs, chasing after ephemeral Patreon success, even successful medium-sized indie companies that began as half-passion projects are frequently one botched project away from bankruptcy.

I don't know what it is that makes game dev such a ripe field for chasing the moon and falling flat.

It's just how the language works.
I bet that's exactly what the French envoys said upon signing. ;D
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 09, 2023, 10:15:46 pm
Edit:That BOALMG 'snap' shot fires twice, though. And doubling your fire rate is a pretty massive upgrade in my book.
Didn't know that. That actually makes it good. Not sure about massive upgrade but good enough that I'll give it a try.

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Yes, the PKM and other machine guns (especially the two GPMGs) are better for long range. Miniguns are not universal weapons. But at up to 20, maybe 25 tiles, miniguns put out an enormous amount of shots with only moderate accuracy loss. If you're kneeling, that is. Miniguns have a giant kneeling bonus.
I just tried them on my first mansion mission and I must say that they ain't half bad. Like, I am not sure I'd take one over a PKM but like... they do good work as a ultra heavy SMG of sorts.
So I will definitively have to experiment more with them.

I will probably convert two of my rifleman into minigunners and have them as a secondary to my machineguns to see how it works out.

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These three round snaps are more accurate than most autofire. Long-range accuracy isn't very good, but ~75% at the edge of vision range for 100 FA agents is passable. You also also get three-round aimed shots. All in all, this thing has a niche, albeit one that already has lots of other weapons in it.
Honestly I've only ever had terrible luck with them. Like, anything past shotgun range just misses all the time. And I am really used to my riflemen putting out snap shot after snap shot of reasonably accurate fire.

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It's not as if sniper rifles are exclusive with smoke. Sit your agents in a smoke cloud, send some out to scout, cover them in more smoke, have the snipers delete whatever they find. They're out of vision range anyway, smoke won't hinder them any further. Classic X-Com scout-sniper tactics. The only problem is accidentally biting off more than your snipers can chew.
Or just advance under cover of smoke, close in, capture and detain. And murderize anything you can't take.

That's why I love the grenade launchers. Stun grenades FTW.

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What's missing in this table is that each of these 'snap' shots fires off three rounds, and the auto does six. So the actual number of shots is thrice that, 50% more than the Glock. Less targets, but I doubt your 2-round bursts are instant kills the vast majority of the time.
I see. I did not know that. That actually makes them really good against heavier targets. I think I shall transition to them than since the time of low armor is running to an end.

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Also, 25 vs 22 damage is in one of the most armour-sensitive ranges of the game. Hitting something for +3-6 damage can be quite significant.
Really?

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Accuracy is really not much different except for aimed shots. And if you want to kill something with aimed pistol shots, a Glock isn't going to cut it. That would need one of the big handguns. Me, I get a rifleman to do that instead.
I generally find the auto fire to be good enough to clear almost anything. Though again, I am mostly dealing with cultists since I find the early game before the aliens to be the most fun part and keep restarting to that.

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That's fine when you actually have enough men for it, but four guys in a van isn't it. They should stack everything on them to avoid reloading while a Zombie is gnawing off their face. I found that to be the only instance where the pocket shotguns actually worked for me.
I only use the vans for covert missions. Otherwise it's all 16 guys all the time. And I always rush for the osprey as soon as possible.

Also, I may or may not have modded it to have the same range as the helicopter.

Happens to game devs even without any corporates being involved. Hobby projects turned into failed jobs, chasing after ephemeral Patreon success, even successful medium-sized indie companies that began as half-passion projects are frequently one botched project away from bankruptcy.

I don't know what it is that makes game dev such a ripe field for chasing the moon and falling flat.[/quote]
There is a huge difference between falling flat and having a horrible job. One is something you can learn from and grow and ultimately just another life experience. The other is just a horrible job.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 09, 2023, 11:08:01 pm
Honestly I've only ever had terrible luck with them. Like, anything past shotgun range just misses all the time.
Well, they're kinda high-risk, high-reward. If 2-3 shots hit, that's a tough enemy down with very few TUs spent. But, yeah, they're too much like shotguns to work in a general rifle role.

Or just advance under cover of smoke, close in, capture and detain. And murderize anything you can't take.
...
That's why I love the grenade launchers. Stun grenades FTW.
Well, that works, too. Probably more effort than just shooting heads off people and assorted critters, but better payoff.

And, yeah, the grenade launchers have a lot of neat ammo.

Really?
Well, maybe I exaggerate a little. :) But when your average damage is 0, like against EXALT goons, +2-3 x6 is something. Might be the difference between getting a bleed on a good roll and not.

I only use the vans for covert missions. Otherwise it's all 16 guys all the time. And I always rush for the osprey as soon as possible.
I was alluding to a time when the van or maybe a small helicopter is all you have. There's a sizeable period of that, and buckshot revolvers aren't too hard to get.

Also, I may or may not have modded it to have the same range as the helicopter.
:o :D

There is a huge difference between falling flat and having a horrible job. One is something you can learn from and grow and ultimately just another life experience. The other is just a horrible job.
Falling flat in game dev tends to come with hellish crunch time before it all unravels, though. :( And the job can occasionally be quite horrible, even with the biggest players, as the Activision-Blizzard conundrum shows.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 09, 2023, 11:27:01 pm
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Well, maybe I exaggerate a little. :) But when your average damage is 0, like against EXALT goons, +2-3 x6 is something. Might be the difference between getting a bleed on a good roll and not.
I'll have to try them. As said, I had no idea they had double and triple shot per trigger press.

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I was alluding to a time when the van or maybe a small helicopter is all you have. There's a sizeable period of that, and buckshot revolvers aren't too hard to get.
:o :D
So the very, very early game? Like I can rush for the osprey within year 1. It's the one thing I rush for more than anything.

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Falling flat in game dev tends to come with hellish crunch time before it all unravels, though. :( And the job can occasionally be quite horrible, even with the biggest players, as the Activision-Blizzard conundrum shows.
Not "even" but "especially". Big corporations always suck to work for no matter what field you are in. You want to work for medium sized ones (less than 1000 people). They are big enough to pay good wages but small enough not to have become infested by the plague of middle management and the plague which are expert beginners (https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/).
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Juku121 on January 10, 2023, 12:10:09 am
So the very, very early game? Like I can rush for the osprey within year 1. It's the one thing I rush for more than anything.
Yeah. I don't tent to rush for it, because generally my goal is to explore the mod. So last time I got it in May '98. I did have fiddled-with global-range improved Mudrangers to make up for those in the meanwhile, though. These aren't actually half bad as far as cover goes. I wish we had some for the mansion assaults.

Not "even" but "especially". Big corporations always suck to work for no matter what field you are in.
Well, the problem with Bliz was more that it was a big company run like a bunch of 'bros' in a basement. Not sure it was actually caused by it being big, more due to the abuse people were willing to take to participate in the fame. And then it all burst. Conversely, EA - the biggest, most reviled gaming conglomerate there is - is reputed to be above average when it comes to treating its developers. Game dev is just such a strange topsy-turvy world.

You want to work for medium sized ones (less than 1000 people).
I generally agree, but not much of these in game dev, and what's still there tends to get eaten by the big players.

Myself, I'm out of the rat race altogether. Has its own perks and downsides.

expert beginners
That's explicitly a failure of training, i.e. management. Can happen anywhere that doesn't care about that, although I suppose it's harder to carry around dead weight in smaller enterprises.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 10, 2023, 06:58:12 pm
Anyway I'd like to report that I am currently testing my modified version of the game. We'll see what happens.

Also, you have converted me to the BlackOps weapons. I genuinely did not know they fired twice. The only one that really disappoints me though is the Assault LMG. Like, maybe I am using it wrong or something but it's not significantly better than their rifle.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Charly1 on January 10, 2023, 09:37:00 pm
Out of interest, what year month do people usually end up finishing the game?

Im in November 2019. Just researched Improved Labs. Still using Black Ops snipers with tritanium rounds. Bringing in 6.5m in funding a month. Got 6 active bases and constructing a 7th for storage as I keep running out of space... although I just saw the costs for them new labs.

I think coming into the gsme new, the buggest hurdle are the manors as you dont know they are there or that they keep spawning. Not sure if an extra few months to deal with them before the invasion would help?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: PPQ on January 11, 2023, 12:09:23 am
I newer have. At least not with this mod. I tried several times but I had to quit due to real life taking up too much time. And when ever I came back enough time had passed that I forgot what I was doing and just restarted.
Title: Re: Turning back the clock
Post by: Chuckebaby on January 11, 2023, 12:48:24 pm
I went into the invasion with paper armor, elastic bands and threw rocks at enemies. You'll be good.
If all else fails, boost one of your soldiers firing stats. Make him your main sniper.

And as far as the Black opts SR. It was one of my favorite weapons in the game.