Poll

Do we need the possibility to build any number of bases? (more than 8 )

Image#1 (square pixel, 1:1)
12 (50%)
Image#2 (non-square pixel, 1:1:2)
12 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL  (Read 7417 times)

Offline Fenyő

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New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« on: July 06, 2014, 04:07:06 pm »
Hello folks!

I want to ask YOUR help!

Have you ever dreamed that you build more than 8 bases?
Imagine it! You could cover the whole planet with radar bases, so you can see everything on the planet!

I have made this feature: Unlimited bases.
Default setting: OFF

With this feature turned on (advanced settings) we can build any number of bases, not only 8.
I have made a little YouTube-video for illustration, click on the picture:


If you think, we should include this feature to OpenXcom, then you just have to vote for YES to convince Warboy to merge this - already implemented - feature with a single push of a button.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 05:09:09 pm »
Well... I'm not sure. The limitation does seem a little artificial, but turning it off could prove some additional UI problems.

Frankly, I don't care much either way.

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 05:17:16 pm »
8 bases with hyperwaves are enough to provide complete enough global coverage that you will never fail to detect a UFO.
unlimiting bases removes the need for the player to take any kind of planning into account, and there is no issue being addressed here.

i'm all for people playing around with the source code and coming up with all kinds of crazy modifications to the game, but they don't belong in the master simply because they exist.

Offline Sturm

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 12:17:10 am »
I was recently playing with reduced power of various base facilities (smaller labs, smaller living quarters, weaker radars) + much longer research times and thought that ability to build more bases would be a very good thing.

Offline moriarty

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 10:37:44 am »
8 bases with hyperwaves are enough to provide complete enough global coverage that you will never fail to detect a UFO.
unlimiting bases removes the need for the player to take any kind of planning into account, and there is no issue being addressed here.

i'm all for people playing around with the source code and coming up with all kinds of crazy modifications to the game, but they don't belong in the master simply because they exist.

this.

Offline luke83

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 11:03:31 am »
8 on earth and 8 in space :)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 01:50:47 pm »
8 on earth and 8 in space :)

Are we talking... an X-Com: Interceptor hybrid game?! :D

Offline Sturm

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 09:46:51 am »
Is there any place I can find code for it?

Offline AndO3131

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niculinux

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 08:00:02 pm »
I think the only limitations are the funding and good sense/management skills of the players.

Offline Recruit69

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 12:55:03 am »
8 bases with hyperwaves are enough to provide complete enough global coverage that you will never fail to detect a UFO.
unlimiting bases removes the need for the player to take any kind of planning into account, and there is no issue being addressed here.

i'm all for people playing around with the source code and coming up with all kinds of crazy modifications to the game, but they don't belong in the master simply because they exist.

Warboy makes sense. Having a limited number of bases enables to think twice about where you place your bases! With money being fairly easy to come by, it would too easy to create new bases many times if it was unlimited?

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 01:26:15 am »
Not that I am generally keen on putting oil on a dying fire, but this time...

What's wrong with having it as an option? That costs nothing to develop because it's already done (I could understand not wanting to do it yourself, of course, that's your time and should be spent your way).

There's already game breaking things like no psionics, or psionic LoS (which I like, but it makes the game VERY different from the original), why not a geoscape option for: Maximum number of bases (Default = 8, player can put anything they want, 0 means infinite).

And similarly, Maximum base size (from Fenyo's other suggestion), with Default value at whichever size the vanilla is, and able to be set by the player?

It removes nothing from your game, still allows the people who liked the restriction to play with them (ex.: play beginner, but only with 2, 3x3 bases, for a different challenge), but it gives those who would like to play around the opportunity to.

In general, I agree that playing around should go in mods, but that's not possible for things like this that depend on the core-code. There are other game changing options that have been enabled. For example:

- Force craft launch for the geoscape specifically has increased my ability to intercept A LOT;
- Instant grenades (throw another one if it didn't kill the alien!),
- 3D explosions (destroy a whole house instead of a floor!)
- Psionic options (basically remove a whole, admittedly really frustrating, but very important difficulty wise, side of the game!)

I was gonna stay quiet, and in general disagree with the way Fenyo approached the situation, but I also disagree with the decision to keep those out.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 05:55:29 pm »
Neither option of this poll is valid for me, I'd rather have the possibility for more bases open but NEVER as an option, only a ruleset option for modders (maxNumberBases or sth). If someone wanted to have, say, a mod where you need to build many bases since the radar ranges/craft speeds/facility effects have been reduced, fine; but as an OPTION it adds absolutely nothing.

@Arthanor: you're misusing the term "game breaker". Psionic LoS is quite an opposite since it makes the game harder and requires more thinking. Forced aircraft launch is honestly an upgrade IMO, same with 3d explosions. About the easier psionic training and instant grenades, well, I call it "casual mode" but even if it takes away from the game, it doesn't break it. Unlimited bases/base size is quite a different animal. Actually, game breaker as it not only takes away a whole layer of thinking, but also enables expotential growth, and I hope I don't have to explain what that means.

Base sizes however do not need modification, option, ruleset or otherwise. 6x6 is how much comfortably fits in the screen, so changing it either way, on top of aforementioned problems, fucks the interface up. Bases too small? Make a mod that increases the eficiency of facilities. Too big? Go the opposite way. No need to change 6x6.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 06:54:07 am »
Option, ruleset option.. It's a bit of a pointless difference in this case. The only thing that changes is the difficulty of accessing the feature. Someone can easily write a "mod" where the only thing that happens is "unlocking" more/bigger bases. So all you did by making it moddable instead of an option is make it more tedious to use the option. I guess the converse is that a mod which reduces radar range could conveniently set the number of bases from within, instead of saying: "recommended bases: 10."

Minimal pros and cons..  As I said, a pointless difference... Except for one's philosophy of modding. For me modding is about adding entirely new content (new crafts/armor/aliens/weapons/etc.), not changing a basic feature (why 8, 6x6 bases? So arbitrary, such a basic thing to be able to change). But if you think otherwise, fine, let's make it a mod. As it is, neither the option nor the mod option is in, and that's unfortunate.

Psionic LoS is a game breaker for sectoids, and at least a big nerf to ethereals, from my experience. Attacking their bases/large UFOs used to be a pain with soldiers going nuts pretty often. It was especially bad earlier in the game. Now, I couldn't care less about the psi-strength of my men, if an alien is in LoS, I shoot it down or walk around a corner. I never used psionics much myself because it made the game boring, but the change for aliens is very significant. Of course, that could be a mod. Maybe we would finally see the "LoS Mind-Control; no-LoS panic" that everyone seems to want.

"but also enables expotential growth, and I hope I don't have to explain what that means." Why don't you give it a try? We'll see if your teaching abilities match with your condescension.. Actually, don't. In a game that already allows users to change the manufacturing time and selling price of stuff, worrying about exponential growth is ridiculous. If someone wants to exploit the game, they just have to create a one engineer-hour, 100 millions $ item. The effort to create multiple bases to manufacture ever more is totally inefficient if one's aim is just breaking the system.

This dictating of how other players "should" play their game, or what they should (not) have access to is weird to me. It's a single player game. Everyone should enjoy it the way the like it and it has no impact on your own enjoyment of the game. If it were to become a multi-player game, sure, worry about balance, but now?

Similarly, changing base sizes allows bigger main bases, which some players might enjoy instead of having to spread out their effort. It makes everything easier to manage since you don't have to move stuff around between storage bases, manufacturing bases and research bases. Changing efficiency of facilities does that, sure, but then you change the capacities of a starting base as well, unless you create two-tiers of facilities, with more efficient "advanced workshops" available later. Those methods are not identical, nor mutually exclusive, and Fenyo has demonstrated that you can do both infinite bases and infinite base sizes in a very elegant way. I think it would be nicer to have the option, especially since it is already implemented.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: New Feature: Unlimited bases, POLL
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 11:15:46 am »
All right I give up. If you (pretend) not to understand that expotential growth is never a good feature, there's no point teaching anything. Especially since I'm not a good teacher at all (so I'll let this at personam slide, I don't care). I'm stating my personal feelings here. Some people like games with easily-accessible cheat codes, I don't. Simple as that. You make a fair point that everyone should be allowed to play the game as they like - but at what point does the game lose any semblance of a game and becomes a kitchen sink? At what point the list of options gets so long that it makes any shared experience (including mods) impossible, as everyone would be using different options? And when there's no shared experience, there is no community. I personally draw the line at outright cheats that do not bring anything except making the game easier (even the seemingly one-sided forced launch has its vagaries - it encourages gambling with your pilots' lives, which increases tension and can lead to more craft losses, so it emphasizes player's inner gambler over an industrialist).

Also, "Psi isn't OP because I'm refraining myself from using it" is not a valid argument. It's bragging. I have nothing against bragging (I'm hardly using Psi myself, so LOS only is for me, personally, an easier mode like it is for you) but it doesn't really belong in this topic.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:20:59 am by Dioxine »