Author Topic: Entere the alien embasy  (Read 3299 times)

Offline GarrettFox

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2021, 05:24:20 am »
Thank you, MEridian, I really appreciate it.

Bottom line, anyone can make a submod. With country reclamation, blackjack, hookers, furries, gremlins, JoJo memes, Rick & Morty references, foie gras and Donald Trump quotes. I really won't mind.

To be clear: at this point I am not really satisfied with the mod. It is still WIP, and also I have some design regrets. But when I keep explaining with simple terms why something is bad, and I repeatedly hear the same weak arguments I've refuted many times before, then I am not even bother doing it again. Because it's madness, white noise, not "feedback".

Also, Juku, screw you and your crude metaphors. Go be an insufferable prick somewhere else.

Regardless of whether you disagree with him, this really isn't an appropriate response.

As mod creator you absolutely get final say on content, but nothing grants you license to be rude to folks who are presenting their side and attempting to support it with evidence.

I'm not certain I understand the notion of XCOM having to take control in order to restore a region. A clandestine agency never takes control, they weaken the current power structure in order to allow a more favorable one to seize control. Normally this presents the problem of ensuring that the one seizing control is friendly, but it is ostensibly easier in those case, as mostly you just have to ensure that they are human and oppose the invasion. You are fighting an enemy that has to functionally continue to wage war in a pseudo amphibious fashion against a planet. Even assuming the local population doesn't have sufficient resistance to seize power, their neighbors likely would.

But reality and what makes sense in terms of design decisions are not necessarily the same. I'm merely pointing out that realistically XCOM doesn't have to take control of anything in order to retake a nation. What decisions you make for the mod is, of course, your decision. 

Edit: fixed the weird double quote
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 02:35:01 am by GarrettFox »

Offline Bonakva

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2021, 02:03:40 am »
For myself, I do this. If I destroyed the base, I edit the save and return the country...

Offline Finnik

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2021, 12:54:55 pm »
For myself, I do this. If I destroyed the base, I edit the save and return the country...

You can instead apply tiny mod with just one ruleset line https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0

Offline Bonakva

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2021, 06:32:22 pm »
You can instead apply tiny mod with just one ruleset line https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldm0p0npa9q85oj/Liberation.rar?dl=0
Oh... It's really more comfortable that way.
Thanks

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2021, 03:54:33 pm »
Regardless of whether you disagree with him, this really isn't an appropriate response.

Oh my, look at me giving all the fucks!

I don't think you realize that this issue has long gone past any kind of reasonable discussion and has basically devolved into harassment by blind fanatics. I'm not going to take it nicely. I have already my position dozens of times, and it doesn't look like these people even bothered to read it. At this point I openly say that I have been too patient.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2021, 07:38:11 pm »
Just for the record...

Spoiler ...because I can't leave well enough alone.:
...I have read a variety of Solarius's opinions on the matter, and they are more nuanced than can be seen in this thread. It's just that they have never been succintly elaborated in any one post, or fully on this forum, either. And I do understand where some of his concerns come from. I'm even okay with the removal of embassies as they were. I just don't think his arguments for leaving infiltration as it is are as good as he thinks.

As for his behaviour, if a content creator cannot handle public interaction without getting personal, the better choice is to not say anything at all. Or get a PR guy, or do as Meridian does, say that the decision has been made and you're not interested in more discussion, regardless of its validity or lack thereof, and don't argue any further. Throwing a tantrum will never improve a situation like this. I made my first post ever on the topic, tried to be polite and look at both sides... and got sweared at.

In any case, it is as it is. Solarius is no longer quite the same serene public persona he was five years ago, and we just have to accept it or find other playgrounds. Dioxine is far worse on the PR front, and lots of people can interact with him okay(-ish) and enjoy his creations just fine. I'm not going to try to argue with either of them ever again, it's like wrestling in a mud pit.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 10:31:05 am by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2021, 03:11:33 pm »
Oh my, look at me giving all the fucks!

I don't think you realize that this issue has long gone past any kind of reasonable discussion and has basically devolved into harassment by blind fanatics. I'm not going to take it nicely. I have already my position dozens of times, and it doesn't look like these people even bothered to read it. At this point I openly say that I have been too patient.

You might have noticed that the "blind fanatics" actually use your own arguments against you, as the lore you've established so far doesn't really line up with what you're saying.

If your sole excuse for this was that it's either hard to implement in a satisfactory manner or that you simply don't want to implement it for balancing reasons this probably wouldn't be an issue. But painting X-Com as a bunch of gung-ho mercenaries who wouldn't be able to pull something like this off while they are literally transcending humanity and can replicate techno-magic just does not add up.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2021, 05:35:23 pm »
Some of it is also that the XCF-verse differs quite a bit from both RL and vanilla X-Com, and a lot of the details exist only in Solarius's mind (and maybe posts). I suppose it's a good thing that mapmaking and other new things take precedence, because my SoD is already shot and buried.

Offline Mrvex

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2021, 06:27:48 pm »
I always understood the infiltration as the soft timer of the game, while XCOM 1 has country panic and XCOM 2 has Avatar, countries pulling away over time, cutting you off your money would be...well a timer.
If it wasnt actually completely void, by the time you have so many countries pulled out from giving money, you probably have so much money in reverse and any UFO run and selling of plasma weapons and its contents would probably keep you well above the water in terms of finances.

Like, if countries could pull out prior to 99 then i would call this artifical difficulty but some responses to it seems abit excessive for both sides when in the end the country pacts mean fuckall in actual game. Yes you losing some money with literally no way to prevent it and now no way to revert it sucks, but it doesnt break the game because at the point where it would become gameplay affecting (Like 50% of countries pulled out) then XCOM probably is so rich at that point and the game has run over its suppose lifespan, the game doesnt expect you to drag on the fight against aliens for like 5 years....


Offline Juku121

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2021, 08:34:31 pm »
As I said in my first post on the topic, that would be completely fine if this mechanic was designed as a timer. But it isn't, right now. It's details are largely carried over from vanilla, while all the other aspects of the game are significantly changed. Especially the length of time spent playing, the relatively higher importance of Council funding and massively slower research. You could breeze through OG X-Com in a couple of sittings if you focused on it. People have been playing XCF for RL years.


For reference:

Vanilla infiltration: random 20% chance each month, 2*20% after half a year. One infiltration can take over an entire region (about 8-9 that matter). Council funding is icing on the cake. The game lasts for maybe a year or two. On average, you might lose about two-three regions in the first year, and if you cared about funding, that'd make you start to hurry. But it doesn't. Even Gollop admitted at one point it wasn't really working as intended.

XCF infiltration: ~3-6% per month + another 11%, both after the invasion proper starts. And some one-off invasions for letting the four cults live too long. One infiltration per country (33 total). Council funding is vital to get you off the ground, and a good chunk of your income for quite a while. Manufacturing is no longer profitable and alien loot prices have been nerfed some. I'm not sure how long the game is supposed to last, but I'd guess five years or so at least, unless you bumrush it. That'll lose you maybe six the countries (a fifth) on average, with a large amount of randomness thrown into the mix because of these very low trigger chances and whether the target is a significant donor or not. That's usually negligible except as flavour (of the 'fuck you, player!' variety :( ), but an unfortunate series of events can cripple someone well into midgame through no fault of their own.

The first, big issue here is the total randomness. Why are only some players hit by the timer, and some harder than others, e.g. the US resigning at the start of the invasion? This subforum has quite a few people posting how they're just hanging on when 1999 hits, and I would completely understand it if one of them got hit by, say, two infiltrations of major donors, went into a downward spiral and lost the game, and then uninstalled XCF in disgust.

The second is that players have no agency when it comes to infiltration, which is generally not a good way to make a game.

The third and shakiest is that the X-Com organisation has no agency, while a number of pedia articles at least suggest they ought to.

Finally, if your main argument in favour of current infiltration is "It sucks, but it doesn't make the game unplayable", then... it's not much of a defence. :)

XCOM1 designed the whole panic and abduction thing as a central mechanic of the game and tested it thoroughly. I haven't touched XCOM2 and am not planning to.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 11:38:37 am by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2021, 01:57:24 pm »
I simply failed to convince myself that X-Com would be able to influence the fate of empires. That is all.

Also, Dioxine told me it was fucking stupid and bad taste. :P

Offline ashtroboy79

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2021, 03:21:04 pm »
so im not here to convince anyone, one way or the other, i just want to say that Jan 99 was very brutal for me with almost 20 ufos of various sizes in russia, and obviously i couldnt deal with anything bigger than medium in any proper way, and at the end of jan 99, russia had signed a deal with the aliens, and this is with me having dealt with the 4 cults by mid-december 98 and having promo3 by start of dec98. It just felt like a complete kick in the teeth as id done everything i could up till that point and had positive scores, and about a months worth of IRL investment in the evenings. So when and if i get round to dealing with the colony in russia, ill probably give them a few months of just nothing and the "cheat" and edit the save to bring them back into the fold, as if they can flip to the aliens in a month, they can probavbly flip back yo humans after a few months, kinda like in UNEXCOM.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 03:23:45 pm by ashtroboy79 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2021, 03:25:52 pm »
so im not here to convince anyone, one way or the other, i just want to say that Jan 99 was very brutal for me with almost 20 ufos of various sizes in russia, and obviously i couldnt deal with anything bigger than medium in any proper way, and at the end of jan 99, russia had signed a deal with the aliens, and this is with me having dealt with the 4 cults by mid-december 98 and having promo3 by start of dec98. It just felt like a complete kick in the teeth as id done everything i could up till that point and had positive scores, and about a months worth of IRL investment in the evenings. So when and if i get round to dealing with the colony in russia, ill probably give them a few months of just nothing and the "cheat" and edit the save to bring them back into the fold, as if they can flip to the aliens in a month, they can probavbly flip back yo humans after a few months, kinda like in UNEXCOM.

Indeed it's supposed to happen, but in reality it is not the end of the world - it only means a bit less money and a bit more aliens. But of course, feel free to edit your save to your liking, it's not a crime.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2021, 05:49:00 pm »
I simply failed to convince myself that X-Com would be able to influence the fate of empires.
That's fine. Not entirely consistent, but what fiction is? :P The embassy mechanic was kinda convoluted.

My point was and is, this is not the beginning and the end of infiltration. You could just add a chance to kill infiltration if the player is able to consistently intercept and shut down infiltration missions. Then you could point e.g. ashtroboy79 to that fact, ask if he had enough air power, and say that it's his fault for not focusing on that. Even though realistically he couldn't actually have had enough, it'd give the illusion of there being a choice, and that he picked the wrong one. Not the current undertone of "Haha, so you wasted a month's worth of evenings? Just as planned!" Indeed, later on there actually would be a choice.

Edit: Or, well, ramp up the special infiltration mission's trigger chance as the game goes on. Then it'd actually be a timer, even if it's ultimately just the timer for a bad-looking funding report. :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 06:00:42 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Fomka

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Re: Entere the alien embasy
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2021, 06:56:17 pm »
Alien embassy... I've just finished off STR_ALIEN_BIG_BASE -- a red square on the globe, an obsolete mission that appeared as a rudiment of Alien embassies that were thrown away, I suppose. Got Tritanium knives from it. They fall into X-COM tech category of weapons. But X-COM sees them for the first time. Also a rudiment? Not a bug?