Alien Embassies

[anothrgamer1234]

When coming to old it spawns much fewer missions, but they're still a chance

I see. I also noticed that I seem to have an Alien Infiltration mission in Antarctica for some reason. Is that actually able to set up an embassy despite there being no countries to infiltrate there?

[Cynus_X]

What will the general public of that country think of "aliens" who massacre one of their beloved idols and their security? X-Com might not be able to change a political agreement made between a foreign government and alien forces, but what about the people who elected said government in the first place?

Isn't this supposed to be a secret war, away from the public? Every mission site gets cleaned & covered up by the council afterwards to prevent the general public from finding out about aliens. And you are talking about making it public risking the chance for mass hysteria.

[krautbernd]

"supposed" being the operating word.

With farmers being regularely abducted by aliens and massacred by zombies or the MIB. With monsters terrorizing urban areas with such frequency that citizens either band together and form hunting parties or the police and/or military getting involved. We have hybrids operating clinics in urban areas, cults operating safe houses and bases in a number that begs belief, daily alien fly-bys later in the game and friggin' gill-men coming out from the sea to sacrifice tourists to their drowned god. We have multiple sub-groups of people wo either eat zombies or consume drugs which grant them superhuman strength and endurance.

I somehow doubt that having aliens shoot up a mansion would the breaking point that's going to cause mass hysteria.

[Cynus_X]

First of all, this is in an era before the internet went mainstream. So no smart phones and no social media, which means that covering up these local incidents is a lot easier for the council to manage if they control the media.
If the media didn't report about it, almost no-one would know about the conducts of the mafia, about cults doing their private practices, about drug-labs in urban areas, about what happens in the ghettos, about lunatics cutting animals up in the field, a mass murderer going on a killing spree, and this is in real life.
Alien flybys are to put the countries who are scanning the sky with radar under pressure, not the general populace who are minding their own business and not constantly watching the sky trying to differentiate between planes, UFOs and shooting stars.

Second, since when is it mandatory for "political agreements" to involve the public? You think the U.S government asks their citizens for approval before negotiating with Russia or China (in secret)? Most of those meetings never meet the public eye. And that is when you are talking about a "free" country.

[krautbernd]

First of all, this is in an era before the internet went mainstream. So no smart phones and no social media, which means that covering up these local incidents is a lot easier for the council to manage if they control the media.
If the media didn't report about it, almost no-one would know about the conducts of the mafia, about cults doing their private practices, about drug-labs in urban areas, about what happens in the ghettos, about lunatics cutting animals up in the field, a mass murderer going on a killing spree, and this is in real life.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

First off, you do realize that people have been able to disseminate information and news-stories in particular just fine, even before the advent fo social media? Regardles of government interference, apart from full-on dictatorships like North Korea?

And we are not talking about 1980s internet. XCF starts in 1996/1997 - that's the start of the first "dot-com"-bubble. AOL has been around since about 1991, Geocities since 1994. BBS services started even sooner. We're not quite at DSL yet, but around this time 56K was introduced/became widely available.

Alien flybys are to put the countries who are scanning the sky with radar under pressure, not the general populace who are minding their own business and not constantly watching the sky trying to differentiate between planes, UFOs and shooting stars.

MUFON and similar groups would have you believe otherwise. As would have the documented sightings beginning in the 1950s. If you have daily UFO flybys ("UFO activity is to be expected over major populated areas as a display of alien power") around the world even your best CCP-style government efforts won't be able to surpress that.

Second, since when is it mandatory for "political agreements" to involve the public? You think the U.S government asks their citizens for approval before negotiating with Russia or China (in secret)? Most of those meetings never meet the public eye. And that is when you are talking about a "free" country.

The US - like many other countries is a republic. Republic litterally means public affair or public matter - citizens of a "classical" republic (disregarding countries like NK) elect officials that act on their behalf.  Even in those that don't, protests and public opinion matter to a degree that can influence the decisions made by the government or a head of state.

If your country has treaties with an alien race and an embassy, people are going to know about it. They might not openly say or talk about it, but if said alien force massacres a public figure people are going to demand answers.

[Cynus_X]

First off, you do realize that people have been able to disseminate information and news-stories in particular just fine, even before the advent fo social media? Regardles of government interference, apart from full-on dictatorships like North Korea?

You do realize that information has to get out for that to happen. What about info that never goes out? If a massacre never gets reported on, how are people with no relation to the place gonna find out about it?

And we are not talking about 1980s internet. XCF starts in 1996/1997 - that's the start of the first "dot-com"-bubble. AOL has been around since about 1991, Geocities since 1994. BBS services started even sooner. We're not quite at DSL yet, but around this time 56K was introduced/became widely available.

In 1999, most households didn't have a computer, let alone access to the internet.

MUFON and similar groups would have you believe otherwise. As would have the documented sightings beginning in the 1950s. If you have daily UFO flybys ("UFO activity is to be expected over major populated areas as a display of alien power") around the world even your best CCP-style government efforts won't be able to surpress that.

And how have the general public reacted to those? Waved away as fairytails. A few thousand members worldwide against 5 billion. And even if they are on the right trail, how would these reach genpop if the council is controlling the media? And don't you think the council would have put these organizations under surveillance the moment they realize that aliens become a threat?

The US - like many other countries is a republic. Republic litterally means public affair or public matter - citizens of a "classical" republic (disregarding countries like NK) elect officials that act on their behalf.  Even in those that don't, protests and public opinion matter to a degree that can influence the decisions made by the government or a head of state.

That is the idea yeah. But in reality most agreements happen behind closed doors.
And what about the secret services like the FBI & CIA. National security takes priority over public opinion and only the top officials know about what really goes on.

"Democracy is worth fighting for, but in the battle for democracy itself it is worthless". The arrival of hostile aliens call for drastic measures and keeping the population in the dark through any means necessary is one of them.

[krautbernd]

You do realize that information has to get out for that to happen. What about info that never goes out? If a massacre never gets reported on, how are people with no relation to the place gonna find out about it?

But apparently information does get out regardless, judging by the numerous "citizen investigation"-missions and random events popping up. You assume that any such occurences have to be "officially" reported on to be noticed. That is simply not the case. You might be able to cover up one missing VIP, but multiple VIPs and/or their security detail being killed with no sufficient explanation? In an urban environment?

In 1999, most households didn't have a computer, let alone access to the internet.

Depending on country and statistics, at least in the US a third of household had a personal computer (and access to the internet, provided they also have a landline) as far back as 1997: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/archive/computer-ownership-up-sharply-in-the-1990s.pdf
Which is on par with the UK: https://www.statista.com/statistics/289191/household-penetration-of-home-computers-in-the-uk/

If you have access or knowledge of other statistics for other countries i'd like to read them.

Every household I knew or was visiting back then had a computer and access to the internet. But that's just from personal experience. Again, not everybody needs access to a PC or the internet for information to disseminate. Even if "the Internet" is the only source, enough people actually talked to other people face-to-face or via telephone back in the day for that to work. All it takes is somebody that has access to that source of information and can share it with other people.

And how have the general public reacted to those? Waved away as fairytails. A few thousand members worldwide against 5 billion. And even if they are on the right trail, how would these reach genpop if the council is controlling the media? And don't you think the council would have put these organizations under surveillance the moment they realize that aliens become a threat?

You are confounding the mod with reality. As far as I know earth isn't under attack from prehistoric sea monsters, zombies, aliens or cults. Nor do we have actual daily UFO-flybys over major population centers. Right now we are our own worst enemy, which is plenty enough.

Does the council actually have total control over all media? That seems kind of absurd tbh. That would equate to massive or universal censorship which I find hard to believe if XCF is supposed to have a grounding in reality.

That is the idea yeah. But in reality most agreements happen behind closed doors. And what about the secret services like the FBI & CIA. National security takes priority over public opinion and only the top officials know about what really goes on.

But not if we're talking about actual treaties that concern multiple parties including the wider public:

"Earth governments can be infiltrated by alien agents which are human in appearance. This can result in official contact between aliens and governments at the highest level. The climax of this activity is characterized by intense UFO activity in the vicinity of major cities. The aliens will attempt to sign a pact with an earth government by offering knowledge of their superior technology. In return the government will allow the aliens to conduct their activity unhindered. This alien mission represents the highest level threat to X-Com. If a government agrees to a pact then its funding will cease."

Not only would the public be aware that something is going on, but that it might be in connection with their government cutting founding to a certain UN agency. As long this beenfits (or at least not overly harms) the general public they might be ok and turn a blind eye, but if these new visitors are openly hostile they might start asking themselves if their government has their best interest in mind.

[Cynus_X]

But apparently information does get out regardless, judging by the numerous "citizen investigation"-missions and random events popping up. You assume that any such occurences have to be "officially" reported on to be noticed. That is simply not the case. You might be able to cover up one missing VIP, but multiple VIPs and/or their security detail being killed with no sufficient explanation? In an urban environment?

I have been talking about the general public since the beginning, not individuals.

Depending on country and statistics, at least in the US a third of household had a personal computer (and access to the internet, provided they also have a landline) as far back as 1997: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/archive/computer-ownership-up-sharply-in-the-1990s.pdf
Which is on par with the UK: https://www.statista.com/statistics/289191/household-penetration-of-home-computers-in-the-uk/

If you have access or knowledge of other statistics for other countries i'd like to read them.

Every household I knew or was visiting back then had a computer and access to the internet. But that's just from personal experience. Again, not everybody needs access to a PC or the internet for information to disseminate. Even if "the Internet" is the only source, enough people actually talked to other people face-to-face or via telephone back in the day for that to work. All it takes is somebody that has access to that source of information and can share it with other people.

Like I said, most households. And internet was crappy back then and you had to pay for each minute, which doesn't encourage most people to conduct a thorough investigation unless they already had an interest (which most people just don't). And this goes for the first world, but what about the rest of the world.

You are confounding the mod with reality. As far as I know earth isn't under attack from prehistoric sea monsters, zombies, aliens or cults. Nor do we have actual daily UFO-flybys over major population centers. Right now we are our own worst enemy, which is plenty enough.

Isn't that what this entire discussion is about? What would the government(s) and populace do if these were real?  As far as I know, people who believe in aliens aren't taken seriously. I never even heard of MUFON until now. It isn't far fetched that the council makes it a priority to keep the civilians in the dark.  And considering it always ends up in a total massacre if you leave the civilians to fend for their own, its probably not that hard to blame it on some good ol terrorists after the fact.

Does the council actually have total control over all media? That seems kind of absurd tbh. That would equate to massive or universal censorship which I find hard to believe if XCF is supposed to have a grounding in reality.

Why does that seem so absurd? Its just every article regarding  alien activity. There have been plenty of coverups already, its not that hard to imagine the US government (or any other government) cranking it up.

But not if we're talking about actual treaties that concern multiple parties including the wider public:

Look at how many secrets Edward Snowden revealed. All done by the U.S government, some of which definitely concerned the US citizens. Preventing mass hysteria has always been a thing. What happens when a chemical plant explodes? The officials always say the same thing: there is nothing to worry about. There is most likely nothing dangerous in the air, but to be safe go home and close your windows.

Not only would the public be aware that something is going on, but that it might be in connection with their government cutting founding to a certain UN agency. As long this beenfits (or at least not overly harms) the general public they might be ok and turn a blind eye, but if these new visitors are openly hostile they might start asking themselves if their government has their best interest in mind.

You think the public is going to notice the cutting of founding a certain UN agency if its not reported in the news? No of course not. Some accountant will be able to make it invisible in the books.

Also important, do these UFO's make sound when they fly? Are they easy to see with the naked eye against the blue/night sky with their speed. Does anyone who is watching where he is going, notice an UFO flying over? Again, some individuals may notice but who is going to believe them.

[krautbernd]

I have been talking about the general public since the beginning, not individuals.

I am sorry, but i think i missed your train of thought here or what that was in reference to. How does talking about the general public vs. individuals make any difference here?

Like I said, most households. And internet was crappy back then and you had to pay for each minute, which doesn't encourage most people to conduct a thorough investigation unless they already had an interest (which most people just don't). And this goes for the first world, but what about the rest of the world.

That didn't stop people from building websites, spending hours on message boards or playing game online. Sure, not the majority, but the majority just has to know that something is going on and that they can access said information if they want to. I take it you were friends with or at least knew somebody who had access to a computer and the internet.

Also, you make it seem like the internet would be linchpin here. Why should that be the case? Again, even without the internet information gets disseminated. Look up the history of talk radio and how that morphed into the 24-hours news cycle seen today (e.g. CNN/FOX in the US). The internet wasn't even the first "interactive" media format. That started way back.

Isn't that what this entire discussion is about? What would the government(s) and populace do if these were real?

But you're trying to compare it to a world population were these things don't exist and where there is no factual evidence for it. That isn't the case for XCF/the XCOM setting in general. That you hadn't heard of MUFON (or similar groups) before underscores that. Again, we don't have daily UFO flybys over major metropolitan cities, monster attacks or tourists being sacrificed to elder star gods, nor do we have any evidence at all for something like that to exist. In contrast, the world in XCF seems to be ripe with that information - so ripe in fact we have multiple government-sponsored factions infighting about access to it. People are going around eating zombies and are injecting/using a drug that's based on"very outlandish science" for starters. Those are the tame parts apparently.

The reason it is so easy to dismiss these things in the real world is because the setting isn't real.

Look at how many secrets Edward Snowden revealed. All done by the U.S government, some of which definitely concerned the US citizens.

And it lead to widespread outcry and a change in policy, apparently:

On June 2, 2015, the U.S. Senate passed, and President Obama signed, the USA Freedom Act which restored in modified form several provisions of the Patriot Act that had expired the day before, while for the first time imposing some limits on the bulk collection of telecommunication data on U.S. citizens by American intelligence agencies. The new restrictions were widely seen as stemming from Snowden's revelations.

Not much, but apparently public opinion and disclosure can have an effect on policy. Now imagine it wasn't about their own government having their best interest in mind, but that they are selling their citizens out to and covering up a "foreign"/alien force operating on their own soil, i.e. they aren't sovereign in their own country anymore. That can amount to treason and would be judged as such by the public.

You think the public is going to notice the cutting of founding a certain UN agency if its not reported in the news? No of course not. Some accountant will be able to make it invisible in the books.

Again, why does it have to be reported "in the news" to be noticed? You can't simply handwave in a magical accountant that makes everything invisible and untraceable. Things are reported and noticed, especially if they are related to financial matters.

Also important, do these UFO's make sound when they fly? Are they easy to see with the naked eye against the blue/night sky with their speed. Does anyone who is watching where he is going, notice an UFO flying over? Again, some individuals may notice but who is going to believe them.

That is the whole point of the fly-bys as far as I can tell. And citizens in urban areas are definitely going to notice UFOs landing in their neighbourhood/cities when they unload and massacre people.

Again, this is not comparable to our real-world setting, and you can't judge public reactions based on these things being none-existent. Point of divergence would be 1997 (starting out) or beforehand judging by later in-game lore.

[Cynus_X]

I am sorry, but i think i missed your train of thought here or what that was in reference to. How does talking about the general public vs. individuals make any difference here?

The general public is not moved when they think it doesn't affect their own or their loved ones lifes. . You think thousands if not millions of people will drop down their jobs, hobbies, social life because a few individuals are screaming something ludicrous as "the aliens are amongst us"?

But you're trying to compare it to a world population were these things don't exist and where there is no factual evidence for it. That isn't the case for XCF/the XCOM setting in general. That you hadn't heard of MUFON (or similar groups) before underscores that. Again, we don't have daily UFO flybys over major metropolitan cities, monster attacks or tourists being sacrificed to elder star gods, nor do we have any evidence at all for something like that to exist. In contrast, the world in XCF seems to be ripe with that information - so ripe in fact we have multiple government-sponsored factions infighting about access to it. People are going around eating zombies and are injecting/using a drug that's based on"very outlandish science" for starters. Those are the tame parts apparently.

The reason it is so easy to dismiss these things in the real world is because the setting isn't real.

Government-sponsored factions  is not the general public. The military is not the general public. Cults that eat zombies or Cults that track ufos are not the general public. We have the Council Salvage corps going around clearing sites of evidence and civilians present either get killed or detained thus not getting any hard evidence out. If there is no coverage on the mainstream media because of governmental interference (channels of general communication)  then the general populace reaction will not be that different. And dont forget, these cases are spread out across the world, not just in the U.S.

And it lead to widespread outcry and a change in policy, apparently:

Yes, and I brought that up because you made the point that the U.S government is not to make decisions that concern the wider public without their consent. Yet it happens.

Again, why does it have to be reported "in the news" to be noticed? You can't simply handwave in a magical accountant that makes everything invisible and untraceable. Things are reported and noticed, especially if they are related to financial matters.

Who is going to check the numbers? The tax authorities? No wait, they are with the government. Are the expenses from the military or say Area 51 public or classified, wouldn't they be put under the same post? And if someone independent finds the numbers, how are they going to make it public if the mainstream media is being checked.

Again, this is not comparable to our real-world setting, and you can't judge public reactions based on these things being none-existent. Point of divergence would be 1997 (starting out) or beforehand judging by later in-game lore.

You keep saying it is not comparable to our real-world setting, yet you do the same. You are allowed to say how the general public reacts to aliens shooting up a government building but I am not allowed to say how I think the world governments/council reacts to aliens/strange lifeforms by doing unconventional things to keep the public in the dark to prevent mass hysteria?

[krautbernd]

The general public is not moved when they think it doesn't affect their own or their loved ones lifes. . You think thousands if not millions of people will drop down their jobs, hobbies, social life because a few individuals are screaming something ludicrous as "the aliens are amongst us"?

Okay, let me just stop you there, but that doesn't hold up to scrutiny, does it?

"The general public is not moved when they think it doesn't affect their own or their loved ones lifes." Really? Because I vividly remember protesting with thousandths of other people in my city against the Iraq War, with millions of people prostesting against that worldwide. Most of whom where not affected by the invasion in the slightest. Different example - do you remember Princess Dianas death? Again, Millions of people worldwide mourning for somebody they had never personally met and who didn't actually have a measurable impact on their daily lives.

Now imagine you (as in, the general public) are presented with proof that your country's leadership has signed over sovereignity to an outside force, and said outside force has just massacred a beloved idol/public figure. You bet the public will be going nuts and is going to demand answers.
 

Government-sponsored factions  is not the general public. The military is not the general public. Cults that eat zombies or Cults that track ufos are not the general public. We have the Council Salvage corps going around clearing sites of evidence and civilians present either get killed or detained thus not getting any hard evidence out. If there is no coverage on the mainstream media because of governmental interference (channels of general communication) then the general populace reaction will not be that different.

But they exist and they have an impact on the general population. That's the whole point. And information does get out, regularely if random events, investigative citizens etc. are any indication. Where do you get the info from that civilians present are killed, exactely? If they are detained - indefinitely, apparently, according to you - what impact are wide-spread global detentions going to have? Wouldn't that make the public even more suspicious, especially if these happen in urban centers and affect a large number of people? I don't think it is ever made clear how exactely the council/council salvagers deals with bystanders and survivors.

Yes, and I brought that up because you made the point that the U.S government is not to make decisions that concern the wider public without their consent. Yet it happens.

But we are not talking about surveilance here. We are talking about aliens operating on sovereign soil with explicit consent of the government. With a newly build, heavily guarded public building that is regularely patrolled/visited by UFOs.

Who is going to check the numbers? The tax authorities? No wait, they are with the government. Are the expenses from the military or say Area 51 public or classified, wouldn't they be put under the same post? And if someone independent finds the numbers, how are they going to make it public if the mainstream media is being checked.

We are talking about UN budgets and contributions here, not black budgets.

You keep saying it is not comparable to our real-world setting, yet you do the same. You are allowed to say how the general public reacts to aliens shooting up a government building but I am not allowed to say how I think the world governments/council reacts to aliens/strange lifeforms by doing unconventional things to keep the public in the dark to prevent mass hysteria?

Really? How does the general public "in the real world" react to aliens shooting up a public building? I must have missed that event. Do you see the difference? You are not comparing similar events - you are comparing the reaction of a public in a world where these things don't exist to the hypothetical reaction of a public in which these things are very much real and happening.

And according to you the reaction should be the same - that does not make much sense, does it? You need to handwave magical accounts that can hide any budget irregularities, global censorship ala 1984 and you even need to disregard/misrepresent the actual reaction of the public IRL to global/tragic events, see above. You completely disregard the impact the events and entities in XCF would have IRL, regardless of how well they would be hidden. So yeah, I'd argue that your argument is invalid if you need to resort to that.

[Cynus_X]

Because I vividly remember protesting with thousandths of other people in my city against the Iraq War, with millions of people prostesting against that worldwide. Most of whom where not affected by the invasion in the slightest. Different example - do you remember Princess Dianas death? Again, Millions of people worldwide mourning for somebody they had never personally met and who didn't actually have a measurable impact on their daily lives.

Really? Their tax dollars going to waste, sending their own country men into war, their personal belief that war is bad. You are comparing something that is known throughout human history to something people haven't seen yet for themselves or has been extensively covered by the news. There is a huge obstacle to be overcome for a normal person to believe in something extraordinaire told by a person who has no official validation.
And you don't have to meet someone in person to love them and consequently mourn for them.

Now imagine you (as in, the general public) are presented with proof that your country's leadership has signed over sovereignity to an outside force, and said outside force has just massacred a beloved idol/public figure. You bet the public will be going nuts and is going to demand answers.

Presented by whom? And its pretty ironic that you said that a reallife governments would not go that far in censorship to keep the citizens in the dark. Yet we are debating a government that has signed a pact with the aliens which allows them to perform human experiments... which is just as (un)likely.

Where do you get the info from that civilians present are killed, exactely?

Go to a monster attack and leave immedeatly. All civilians are killed according to the scorescreen.

If they are detained - indefinitely, apparently, according to you - what impact are wide-spread global detentions going to have? Wouldn't that make the public even more suspicious, especially if these happen in urban centers and affect a large number of people?

I never said indefinitely. I do think they are traumatized and are cared for by psychiatrist and put on a prescription. Making them believe they witnesses a homicidal maniac with a chainsaw for example.

But we are not talking about surveilance here. We are talking about aliens operating on sovereign soil with explicit consent of the government. With a newly build, heavily guarded public building that is regularely patrolled/visited by UFOs.

That depends on how far the alien influence around the embassy goes. I don't know what experiments are being done but I wouldn't be surprised if some mind control was going on.

We are talking about UN budgets and contributions here, not black budgets.

Again, you havent answered the question about who is going to check it if its deemed classified and how are they going to make it to the public.

Really? How does the general public "in the real world" react to aliens shooting up a public building? I must have missed that event. Do you see the difference? You are not comparing similar events - you are comparing the reaction of a public in a world where these things don't exist to the hypothetical reaction of a public in which these things are very much real and happening.

What happens when people think the world as they know it is about to end? They start buying up all the TOILET Paper and start fighting over it. Anarchy, mass hysteria. Long preservative food like pasta & canned food were sold out because people thought the supply chain was going to crumble.
Its not unlikely they are going to think their country is going to turn into a war zone very soon when they see aliens making an open attack. Yet you think they are just gonna vote. Say NO to aliens. Bad PR for the aliens is the only outcome and not a panic?

You completely disregard the impact the events and entities in XCF would have IRL, regardless of how well they would be hidden.

Ow, you mean how you completely disregard the impact it would have on the governments and their secret services. Like they wouldn't act on the fact they believe that the public CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH. And it does matter how well it is hidden otherwise we wouldn't be arguing.

You need to handwave magical accounts that can hide any budget irregularities,

So yeah, I'd argue that your argument is invalid if you need to resort to that.

If you are using the term magical for embezzlement then I'd say we are done here. This is turning into insults rather then a discussion. I think we both made clear were we are coming from and its not for us to decide where this goes. Its not that I disagree with you on most points its just that I think the opposite is just as possible in this fictional setting.

[krautbernd]

This is getting a bit out of hand...

Really? Their tax dollars going to waste, sending their own country men into war, their personal belief that war is bad. You are comparing something that is known throughout human history to something people haven't seen yet for themselves or has been extensively covered by the news. There is a huge obstacle to be overcome for a normal person to believe in something extraordinaire told by a person who has no official validation.
And you don't have to meet someone in person to love them and consequently mourn for them.

Again, are you sure you know what you're talking about? Do you know which countries actually took part in the invasion? My country didn't. Most of europe didn't. Most of the world actually didn't. Yet people protested. And your argument wasn't about personal belief or mourning for a celebrity. Your argument was that "The general public is not moved when they think it doesn't affect their own or their loved ones lifes". Are you backtracking on that? Because my point is that people will protest and demand answers when a figure of public life (and their security detail, among others) is slaugthered by an unknown, probably government-sanctioned force. And there is enough precedent for that throughout human history as well.

Going by your newfound reasoning, people in free and open societies should be on the barricades about the rampant, obvious censorship as well.

Presented by whom? And its pretty ironic that you said that a reallife governments would not go that far in censorship to keep the citizens in the dark. Yet we are debating a government that has signed a pact with the aliens which allows them to perform human experiments... which is just as (un)likely.

But you are talking about globe-spanning censorship ala 1984 that somehow prevents people from witnessing and debating rampant cases of supernatural events. But these start to happen way before any pacts are signed. Cameras and camcorders existed back in the 90s. As did the internet, mail and postage services, radio, television etc. If not, x-com could simply leak footage of the event. People are bound to be on edge either way.

Go to a monster attack and leave immedeatly. All civilians are killed according to the scorescreen.

Code: [Select]

STR_CIVILIANS_KILLED_BY_XCOM_OPERATIVES: "CIVILIANS KILLED BY X-COM OPERATIVES"
  STR_CIVILIANS_KILLED_BY_ALIENS: "CIVILIANS KILLED BY ENEMIES"Yeah. By the monsters. I was talking about civilians saved by X-Com. They clearly aren't killed by the council.

I never said indefinitely. I do think they are traumatized and are cared for by psychiatrist and put on a prescription. Making them believe they witnesses a homicidal maniac with a chainsaw for example.

That's not how medication or psychiatry work, especially not if they ever get to talk to others who were also involved in the incident.  And it doesn't account for bystanders who aren't present on the battlefield. What, you think a UFO touching down in New York, Paris or Tokio and the ensuing chaos and destruction would only be witnessed by a handful of people? Again, people actually did have cameras back in the 90s. There is bound to be security/camera footage as well that's going to reach the public. People are going to talk about something like that.

As far as I can tell it's never explained lore-wise how the council handles these events, but you can't simply detain and drug hundreds or thousandths of people every time the aliens land in or near major city centers. All the council and the salvage corps can do really is engage in damage control. They can't undo these events.

That depends on how far the alien influence around the embassy goes. I don't know what experiments are being done but I wouldn't be surprised if some mind control was going on.

Nothing stated in the lore so far makes me believe they could simply mind-control entire city blocks. If that was the case they wouldn't to make those pacts in the first place. It's explicitly stated in the descriptions for fly-bys and infiltrations that there is significant UFO-activity in/near major city centers. What, do all inhabitants of Berlin or Rome suddenly, collectively not look at the sky anymore?

Again, you havent answered the question about who is going to check it if its deemed classified and how are they going to make it to the public.

And you haven't provided an explantion for your magical accountant or the globe-spanning censorship either. If you're allowed to handwave your magical account, I'm simply going to handwave a magical whistleblower who leaks that information to the public. In this case it could even be X-Com itself if they deem the situation dire enough.

What happens when people think the world as they know it is about to end? They start buying up all the TOILET Paper and start fighting over it. Anarchy, mass hysteria. Long preservative food like pasta & canned food were sold out because people thought the supply chain was going to crumble. Its not unlikely they are going to think their country is going to turn into a war zone very soon when they see aliens making an open attack. Yet you think they are just gonna vote. Say NO to aliens. Bad PR for the aliens is the only outcome and not a panic?

That's funny, weren't you just saying people would be indifferent? What's your point here, exactely? My point is that X-Com is going to provoke a change in policy. How that is brought about is secondary.

Ow, you mean how you completely disregard the impact it would have on the governments and their secret services. Like they wouldn't act on the fact they believe that the public CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH. And it does matter how well it is hidden otherwise we wouldn't be arguing.

The point is that you can't completly hide or undo aliens blowing up a city block and UFOs regularely flying over major city centers. What the government or any other organisations think about that in regards to the public is simply irrelevant, since it is not in their power to prevent these things from happening. The fact that they can't control it is the reason they eventually sign the pact. All they can do is damage control after these things take place.

If you are using the term magical for embezzlement then I'd say we are done here. This is turning into insults rather then a discussion. I think we both made clear were we are coming from and its not for us to decide where this goes. Its not that I disagree with you on most points its just that I think the opposite is just as possible in this fictional setting.

Apologies if I should have insulted you, but pointing out that your take on the iraq war or other happenings don't add up with what you're saying is a valid point as far as I am concerned. And if you are allowed to conjur up a magical accountant who can erase all traces, I am allowed to conjur up a magic whistleblower - which makes the whole thing about hidden budgets kind of pointless. Neither did you adress your Orwellian surveilance/censorship aparatus that would have to be on place to justify your line of reasoning. I've also asked you to present other statistics regarding computer/internet availability and your reasoning behind the internet being the linchpin for this, despite it as well as a multidtude of other media being available at the time.

No offense, but isn't the core of your "scenario" (or rather your points of disagreement with mine) that people would treat all of these phenoma with indifference, regardless of how widespread they are? Do you honestly think that's realistic?

[Solarius Scorch]

This is quite an interesting discussion, and I personally don't think that any insults were thrown beyond what can reasonably be expected from a heated conversation.

[krautbernd]

I've been thinking about doing a submod specifically for that, but haven't yet encountered any embassy-missions or any of the prereqs in my playthrough. I have only a cursory idea how that stuff works script-wise. I'm also not sure about lore at this point.

How does the council deal with bystanders when the aliens shoot up stuff that's not in some remote location, but a major city center? Does the public actually notice and care about the UFOs flying around or other shady dealings (provided they haven't all gotten a good wiff of that chemtrail-juice)?