Author Topic: First mission: panic?  (Read 1667 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2020, 07:46:58 pm »
Not sure, but it's their very first mission ever, so whatever the default readiness is. Also, I can't figure out how to check readiness. :P

It's the big bad blue bar. ::)

When I say "illogical" it's just about the fact that XCom soldiers, even novices, are supposed to be experienced (very?) soldiers compared to ordinary civilians.

What mod are you playing? Because obviously not X-Com Files. You really should specify that.

Really? But, isn't using bad rookies as cannon fodder a proven and true method present in all X-COM games? The medal system makes you care a little more about each meatbag that seems to be worthy. The fatigue system merely provides more micromanaging as you have to add a third team to rotate with your other two favorites.

Let me put it like this: I'm in late 1998 now and I've never, ever, ever even noticed that the Readiness is a thing. Not even once it became remotely relevant. In fact I've been thinking about increasing its effects, because what good is a mechanics which doesn't impact the gameplay? But on the other hand there are reports saying otherwise, so I'm not eager to make changes here. (lso, it's a lot of work.)
And it's not like I'm that good at playing my own mod either, people on XCF discord are way better than I. After all, I don't play that much.

I would however welcome a small disclaimer in the description of each popular mod saying what kind of game genre they are aiming for. E.g. instead of being a strategy game, they want to make an rpg game, or a puzzle game, or a nucom clone, or a storytelling game, etc.

That is definitely a good idea, and not only for X-Com mods - entertainment products should be at least somewhat labeled. It's an art though.

Offline BlackStaff

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2020, 10:24:15 pm »
What mod are you playing? Because obviously not X-Com Files. You really should specify that.
It is true that they are not elite commandos, but on the whole they are better than civilians!  8)

              CIVIL  SOLDIER (mini-max)
TU              46     45-55
Stamina         40     40-65
Health          35     25-35
Bravery         60     10-60
Reactions       30     30-60
Firing          40     45-65
Throwing        30     35-55
Strength        30     20-40
PSIstrength     35      0-100
PSIskill         0      0-6
Melee           30     20-60



Offline eXalted

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2020, 12:22:54 pm »
I've never, ever, ever even noticed that the Readiness is a thing. Not even once it became remotely relevant. In fact I've been thinking about increasing its effects, because what good is a mechanics which doesn't impact the gameplay?

This is true. I'm not an X-Com veteran and never played above Experienced in vanilla. X-Com Files is my first ever mod that I play and until now, a year and a half in-game time, I have never felt Readiness to have any impact on my soldiers. I mean, are you moving your soldiers only one step per turn?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 03:52:55 pm by eXalted »

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2020, 02:39:23 pm »
while one step per turn would be an exaggeration, it does sound to me like the most likely cause is a difference in playstyle.

I would guess that the people who are struggling with it generally take more time in tactical missions for whatever reason, and the people who don't notice it tend to be faster.

I don't see a reason to penalize the people who take more time, not for the sake of better gameplay or for realism. theoretically, a longer (by a minute or two if you convert turn time to real time) and more careful mission wouldn't hurt someone's readiness more than a fast and furious one.

this is why I'm on board with the suggestions later on in this post:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7775.15.html

specifically, the altering of readiness based on xp gained, and possibly total morale lost as well.

I plan to try and hack together something like this over spring break/quarantine if I have time.
anyone have suggestions for how to get started?
i've already got the mana and ruleset documentation, and if I remember correctly solarius said readiness is attached to armour.
anything else I should know?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 02:43:53 pm by WaldoTheRanger »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2020, 03:41:51 pm »
I am not trying to penalize slow players. But they are already at a big advantage, so I don't mean to make life even easier for them... :)

Offline TheCurse

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2020, 04:48:43 pm »
It is true that they are not elite commandos, but on the whole they are better than civilians!  8)

              CIVIL  SOLDIER (mini-max)
TU              46     45-55
Stamina         40     40-65
Health          35     25-35
Bravery         60     10-60
Reactions       30     30-60
Firing          40     45-65
Throwing        30     35-55
Strength        30     20-40
PSIstrength     35      0-100
PSIskill         0      0-6
Melee           30     20-60

wow. with these stats hiring civilians doesn't even sound that absurd...
what about hybrids?

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2020, 05:03:42 pm »
I am not trying to penalize slow players. But they are already at a big advantage, so I don't mean to make life even easier for them... :)
fair enough.

i'll still try to do what I was thinking. I think it could still be better (by which I mean less arbitrary) if balanced properly.
I'll try making morale lost have a greater impact, so that longer missions (especially against psionics) still have a slightly greater penalty than short ones.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 05:07:29 pm by WaldoTheRanger »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2020, 07:08:28 pm »
Actually I'm having some thought about emphasizing the readiness status as less "combat fatigue" and more "mental damage from contact with the supernatural". You know, Cthulhu style.
What I'm thinking of is leaving everything as is, except on missions with no "supernatural" enemies (aliens etc.) you don't lose Readiness. This can be done by applying an effect every turn which adds +1 Readiness, thus cancelling out the loss.
Bear in mind it's a just loose idea for now.

Online Bananas_Akimbo

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2020, 08:54:05 pm »
Since we are again at the topic of changing the readiness system, I'll throw in my 2 cents.
My favourite thing about readiness is, how it forces you to rest your soldiers between missions, like in Long War. In vanilla X-Com it has always bothered me a bit, how you could just throw the same small group of people into battle non-stop, 7 days a week and more, with no regard for their well-being beyond getting wounded.
If it was up to me, this aspect could be even more pronounced.

Limiting readiness loss to missions with "supernatural" enemies would also affect the need to rest your troops, right? That would be bad.
And really, if you are being loose with the definition, most enemy groups could be called "supernatural". All of the wild creatures and zombies fit the bill, don't they? The various cults also do to some degree. I mean you are fighting creepy fish-people, russians on alien steroids, and freaking ninjas. They are all weirdos except for Exalt and Osiron.

I would like to propose, that readiness depletion simply be slowed (how much? dunno, half maybe?), to accomodate slower players and that readiness regeneration in the geoscape is then also slowed (by the same factor or even more).

Offline TheCurse

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2020, 11:52:37 pm »
Actually I'm having some thought about emphasizing the readiness status as less "combat fatigue" and more "mental damage from contact with the supernatural". You know, Cthulhu style.
What I'm thinking of is leaving everything as is, except on missions with no "supernatural" enemies (aliens etc.) you don't lose Readiness. This can be done by applying an effect every turn which adds +1 Readiness, thus cancelling out the loss.
Bear in mind it's a just loose idea for now.
And when your mind got too twisted you´re out of readiness you´re gonna succumb to Khorne? ^^
Or Nurgle maybe ;)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2020, 01:08:53 pm »
I can't reduce the Readiness effect, because it's already at 1 per turn :D
If I wanted to, I could double the Readiness meter and the daily regeneration... But I see no reason to at this point.

As for the "supernatural" thing, the main problem is that when not fighting the supernatural, you would gain 1 Readiness per turn, which would be... bad.

And when your mind got too twisted you´re out of readiness you´re gonna succumb to Khorne? ^^
Or Nurgle maybe ;)

Any of the four is possible, but for a random mortal it doesn't really matter, as the result is Chaos Undecided in your head :)

Online Yankes

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2020, 01:46:08 pm »
One way it could be done by counting number of "abnormal" enemies each turn (humans 0, aliens 1, ghost 4 and Cthulhu 100), store it in global variable and on next turn subtract this value (probably divided by some factor) from all xcom units "sanity".
I would need check this, but calculation could be affected by "visibility" of alien. Or on other hand only your soldiers that was that are know by "it" would be affected by this insanity.

btw how about random switch of sides if you are insane? In some context I could easy change side of unit.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2020, 04:41:15 pm »
One way it could be done by counting number of "abnormal" enemies each turn (humans 0, aliens 1, ghost 4 and Cthulhu 100), store it in global variable and on next turn subtract this value (probably divided by some factor) from all xcom units "sanity".
I would need check this, but calculation could be affected by "visibility" of alien. Or on other hand only your soldiers that was that are know by "it" would be affected by this insanity.

Interesting, but there are many, many logic questions to be answered. What are the conditions for this effect to take place? For example, do you need to see the monster?

btw how about random switch of sides if you are insane? In some context I could easy change side of unit.

Hmm, could it be used to make an encountered civilian your own unit?

Online Yankes

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2020, 06:05:17 pm »
Interesting, but there are many, many logic questions to be answered. What are the conditions for this effect to take place? For example, do you need to see the monster?
Dummy version would simply count live aliens, more complex would need checking state that is still not avaialbe in scripts.

Hmm, could it be used to make an encountered civilian your own unit?
Yes, and no, problem is definition of "encountered", scripts need be aware of this to make it work. Right now one way would be "smack" them with your weapon when they will follow you for for some time.

To implement this I would need check when is safe to change unit fraction and not break game.

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: First mission: panic?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2020, 05:59:16 am »
The idea of readiness as sanity does sound cool, but if that's all it was I think you'd have to rename it to sanity because of how different it is.

I'm currently gathering data (i.e. having a blast punching wolves and cultists) for my own thing. I'll make a new post if/when I get something presentable done.

maybe the two could be combined somehow. once readiness gets low enough from being driven too hard/seeing too many unnatural things/having buddies die, you lose your sanity and that's when you start to panic really easy and shoot your comrades in the back.