aliens

Author Topic: [Rejected] Bigger xcom bases  (Read 11319 times)

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2020, 08:02:37 am »
Thanks Waldo, I've been reading the thread your post is in.  But if I understand Solarius correctly, he isn't looking for more than a 36 facility base.  He just wants the upper levels of the base to be above ground instead of the entire base below ground.  In my previous post, each facility would occupy the whole vertical column ie all levels even if some levels were just open air or plain dirt.  Similar to how Piratez bases include a sewer level and an air duct/utility tunnel level.  Since he is an experienced modder, I was wondering how much of his vision he could implement with today's functionality and what the showstoppers are.  Meridian has made it perfectly clear that he isn't interested in changing the 6x6x1 base facility layout.  But I've seen mixed terrain battlescape maps and wondered if something similar is possible with the base defense battlescape.

PS  It just occurred to me that the aliens get have a base with a surface level but maybe that is only allowed on Mars.   :P

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2020, 02:32:45 pm »
Would it be possible to:
Design your early base facilities with outdoor tile sets.
Fill all the upper levels of the base map with air tiles instead dirt tiles.
Replace all the walled dirt tiles between facilities on the upper levels with empty air tiles or an outdoor surface tile.
Include outdoor light sources to hide the lack of normal day/night behavior.

Yes, all this is possible already. Generating the battlescape map is not a problem.
All missing features are related to
- Basescape view (layers),
- A function to use verticalLevels to the surface buildings on the surface (except for lifts and hangars, which would be present on both layers, but technically they would have to be coded as surface buildings).

Early game facilities would only consist of "surface" structures except maybe the access lift.

Something like that, except it's pointless to be allowed to build a lift when you can't build any underground facilities yet.

Later facilities would consist of the same surface structures with added underground floors. These later facilities could be more advanced versions of early facilities or combination facilities. A later facility could be built on top of an existing early facility only if the surface portion matched.

That is a bit more complicated than I envisioned, I just wanted two layers which are separate from one another, except for lifts and hangars. But I agree that it would be nice to have cellars.

I suspect not all of this is possible, but perhaps the problem spots could be identified and be potentially addressed with a much smaller engine change.  Where the base is still a 6x6, 36 facility max base but in battlescape it appears to have 4 or so above ground levels (mostly empty air tiles except the buildings and scenery) and a couple below ground levels.

This is trivial (if tedious) to do, Piratez did that years ago. Therefore it's not really in scope of this discussion.

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2020, 07:52:47 pm »
Ah. yes I did misunderstand.

Best of luck with whatever you guys figure out. I'll be happy regardless.

Offline MasterBLB

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2020, 07:55:13 pm »
Well, I cared only about extra 6x6 grid for facilities, but if the idea can be evolved into better, more interesting base defense missions then I'm full up to it.

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2020, 04:52:18 am »
Well I guess I don't understand either.  Based on Solarius response to my last post above in this thread, this now seems to be possible:
So, I've been wondering (Hard.) about making a taller X-Com base map by adding a surface level to the underground level. Basically, adding one layer of earth above each facility, and above that place some appropriate buildings stolen from Hobbes' military installation (for example, a closed dome above each defence, a recreational area above Living Quarters, a big hatch above each Hangar, etc.). It would allow us to fight aliens on the ground before retreating underground for a second stage, if need be.

Now, the problem is, these would require many new tiles for the surface. I wonder how one would handle that... I don't really have any experience with such tricks. Guys, what do you think?

But with a two layer system where above ground is an independent facility from the below ground facility directly under it, the player could put the living quarters under the closed dome and the missile defense under the recreational area!  Also, if a surface facility gets destroyed in a base defense, it wouldn't make sense that any other surface facilities would be lost due to being disconnected from the rest of the base.  If an underground facility is destroyed does that have any effect on the surface facility directly above it?  Also what function or service would a giant hatch provide if a hanger was never built below it? Or if the hatch wasn't directly over the hanger?

I was thinking for example something like the early base has an above ground barracks for staff and an above ground anti aircraft artillery gun for defence.  The player through research then unlocks living quarters and missile silo.  The player can now upgrade or replace his barracks facility with the recreational area that has living quarters below it.  Similarily, he can replace the triple-A gun with the underground missile silo which has the closed dome on the surface.  Thus, the above ground portion and the below ground portion are part of the same facility.  I realize that post I quoted is almost 5 years old and his vision may be quite different now.

So like I said, I don't understand.  Various people in this thread want different things.  Players can easily make small text only mods that give them more living, storage space, or whatever so that they wouldn't have to build more than one facility to meet those needs and thus have plenty of remaining available space for facilities in their bases.  Modders want to expand the game's capabilities so that they can add cool new content like bases with both above and below ground structures that is different from what others have done.  And devs don't want additions to the code that they feel are unnecessary especially when viable alternatives exist.

As for bases that are variable in the x, y, and z axis for facility count, or number of bases, or location of bases on land, on sea, on seafloor, on clouds, moving, in orbit, on the moon or whatever, I feel that it would be better if that was under the modders' control so long as there aren't negative impacts to existing mods.  But underappreciated devs have better uses for their time.

Offline Finnik

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2020, 12:52:45 pm »
I like both hangar types to make 1x1 hangars for XCF cars (for more 80% players I asked it is stupid that tiny car needs that huge and expensive space as a spaceship do), so its definitely a feature I would love to see in OXCE.

I was thinking of 2 stages of base defense mission and I don't understand how it should work. You come to the next stage when you enter a specific area or clear the map. It works well if you assaulting, but I can't imagine how defense should work then.

I'd think of it as a single map, generated with vertical levels (like XCF alien embassy map works) with a new feature for the base state. It would be great if we could define different texture for dirt blocks in base state. we also will need facility type to define if this module can be built on the top layer or bottom level (if we stick to 2 levels or more complex definition for the unlimited base levels).

As for facility space per base - I personally feel that we lack of space in XCF - a lot of LPs i saw in lategame have 100% filled base, I'm fealing that even in midgame I need more space in bases. Also as a modder I feel myself limited in options, especially after facility triggers go live (https://github.com/MeridianOXC/OpenXcom/pull/56/commits/a888c15031f0ef54cb25ed1af0ba0f6033d22752) - we could have specific mission, arc or event spawning buildings, like psi gates, different radars or scanners - endless possibilities! But I don't feel we should add even more facilities in XCF, as players will not be possible to fit everything he or she needs.

Offline Meridian

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2020, 01:14:54 pm »
As for facility space per base - I personally feel that we lack of space in XCF - a lot of LPs i saw in lategame have 100% filled base, I'm fealing that even in midgame I need more space in bases. Also as a modder I feel myself limited in options, especially after facility triggers go live (https://github.com/MeridianOXC/OpenXcom/pull/56/commits/a888c15031f0ef54cb25ed1af0ba0f6033d22752) - we could have specific mission, arc or event spawning buildings, like psi gates, different radars or scanners - endless possibilities! But I don't feel we should add even more facilities in XCF, as players will not be possible to fit everything he or she needs.

That is simply not true, it's just an illusion (feels real, yes, but still just an illusion).

I also have an LP running right now, PirateZ... and it's still EARLY game... and I already have all 8 bases completely full.

That doesn't mean however there is not enough space... I can (and I will) easily repurpose the bases for completely different things during the rest of the game.
It's normal, even more, it's not brain-dead!

There is space for 6x6x8 = 288 facilities... if that's not enough for someone (even in megamods), then I can safely say that even 1000 or 10000 will not be enough for them.

PS: Psi gates, scanners, etc.  how many of them do you want? 10? 20? 30? Even if you have 30 absolutely specialized buildings that you just must have built all at the same time.... how much is that? 30/288 = 10%. Measly insignificant ten percent!

wcho035

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2020, 03:24:23 pm »
I like both hangar types to make 1x1 hangars for XCF cars (for more 80% players I asked it is stupid that tiny car needs that huge and expensive space as a spaceship do), so its definitely a feature I would love to see in OXCE.

I was thinking of 2 stages of base defense mission and I don't understand how it should work. You come to the next stage when you enter a specific area or clear the map. It works well if you assaulting, but I can't imagine how defense should work then.

I'd think of it as a single map, generated with vertical levels (like XCF alien embassy map works) with a new feature for the base state. It would be great if we could define different texture for dirt blocks in base state. we also will need facility type to define if this module can be built on the top layer or bottom level (if we stick to 2 levels or more complex definition for the unlimited base levels).

As for facility space per base - I personally feel that we lack of space in XCF - a lot of LPs i saw in lategame have 100% filled base, I'm fealing that even in midgame I need more space in bases. Also as a modder I feel myself limited in options, especially after facility triggers go live (https://github.com/MeridianOXC/OpenXcom/pull/56/commits/a888c15031f0ef54cb25ed1af0ba0f6033d22752) - we could have specific mission, arc or event spawning buildings, like psi gates, different radars or scanners - endless possibilities! But I don't feel we should add even more facilities in XCF, as players will not be possible to fit everything he or she needs.

Hi Finnik, if you recalled our once online conversation in discord that coding 1x1 hangers is possible. If you can code this feature and limits which craft can dock the hanger. You will be doing us all a big favour.

Remember, 1x1 hangers has the flexibility to be remade to 4 1x1 hangers. Instead of one large hanger with 4 craft. 3x3 hangers are unnecessary in my book.

It will save space in a base, instead of asking for more bases added beyond the default. Having more bases than 8 is Something a feature I would see too. For me, 16 is the sweet spot.

If you want 2 stage base defense mission, this is possible with Ohartenstein23's vertical level. You just have to put the ufo outside of the base's map. I have briefly experiment on this, however, my ufo was sunken below underground. I have yet to go back on this since.

Offline Finnik

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2020, 12:42:23 am »

There is space for 6x6x8 = 288 facilities... if that's not enough for someone (even in megamods), then I can safely say that even 1000 or 10000 will not be enough for them.

yeah, but we have hangars as 4x4 blocks, they cut this math a lot. For me, I usually have 3 of them at the main 3 bases (for building crafts and having different assault crafts) and often 2 hangars at small bases for different interceptors. So for my loadout, 76 spots are used only for hangars leaving us 212 spots. With adding lifts to it we have 204 spots - not that small, but I can't say its enough for everything megamod could need. And its far less then 1000 or 10000.


 Even if you have 30 absolutely specialized buildings that you just must have built all at the same time.... how much is that? 30/288 = 10%. Measly insignificant ten percent!


I'm sure the day I commit XCF feature, adding 30 unique facilities that are absolutely necessary to win the game will be the day of my execution. That day I'll ask for mercy from players and cry, that its just "Measly insignificant ten percent!"

For now, I don't feel I can add even one more unique building, tho, I'd love to.


Hi Finnik, if you recalled our once online conversation in discord that coding 1x1 hangers is possible. If you can code this feature and limits which craft can dock the hanger. You will be doing us all a big favour.


Hold on, I never said that I'm the Chosen One, who can deal with it.
I newer saw related code and I have no idea what's needed and what is the lower side of an iceberg. I'm not any talented in coding, so if Dev's do not do it, I dare not claim.


Offline Meridian

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2020, 09:55:54 am »
yeah, but we have hangars as 4x4 blocks, they cut this math a lot. For me, I usually have 3 of them at the main 3 bases (for building crafts and having different assault crafts) and often 2 hangars at small bases for different interceptors. So for my loadout, 76 spots are used only for hangars leaving us 212 spots. With adding lifts to it we have 204 spots - not that small, but I can't say its enough for everything megamod could need. And its far less then 1000 or 10000.

Why the fuck would you have 4x4 hangars? Isn't 2x2 already big enough?

Also, just make upgraded hangars, that can have multiple craft... and you save tons of space.

You want underground buildings? Easy, just say in the description that this upgraded facility also digs underground and that's why it provides x2 storage space.

If you feel players would not have enough space... and I must note that in all XCF LPs I have seen so far players were NOT complaining... just provide facility upgrades:
1. starting 1x1 storage facility = 100 space
2. upgraded 1x1 storage facility = 200 space (explanation: better arrangement)
3. more upgraded 1x1 storage facility = 400 space (explanation: digs underground, twice the space)
4. even more upgraded 1x1 storage facility = 600 space (explanation: digs even more underground)
5. ultimate 1x1 storage facility = 10000 space (explanation: offsite storage included)

You can do that for living quarters too, for hangars as well, for workshops, etc.

There are unlimited possibilities today already!

Offline Nord

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Re: [question] Is multifoor basescape possible?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2020, 10:07:24 am »
There are unlimited possibilities today already!
So true... there are more possibilities than free time for modding. Thanks to Yankes and Meridian.

Also, multi-layered base will create a little micromanagement nightmare.