[Rejected] Bigger xcom bases

[Rubber Cannonball]

Just some links from past threads related to this topic for those that might be interested.

unlimited bases https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,2558.0.html
sizes other than 6x6 https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1636.0.html
2 layer w/surface https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3609.0.html
multilayer mobile https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2859.0.html

[MasterBLB]

Dear mates, maybe I should explain why such question raised.

I play The World of Terrifying Silence mod for Terror from the Deep, written by Nord. It is great, however compared to vanila TFTD has features:
- labs accommodate only 25 scientists instead of 50. So to get usual number of scientists(100) total four facilities are required instead of two.
- all alien stuff like implanters, cloning, learning arrays, bah corpses even, whose in vanila was sold immediately freeing store space in the mod have some important usage as ingredient for something, so it should be kept for later use - and keeping them requires storage space. MUCH of storage space.
- I've read on forum about aliens can bombard bases, so point defense systems + repellent shield also seems to become mandatory.
- there are also plenty of new facilities, some of them are mandatory to progress research like Bionic Laboratory, or really nice to have like Naval Control Center. Sadly, due to increased usage of available space for stores they simply can't be afforded, in main base at least.
- also, you've taken away possibility to freely move facilities around the grid some time ago, or at least made the feature hidden.

All the above causes that vanila basescape grid 6x6, perfect for vanila Ufo:Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep 20 years ago becomes too small nowadays - so some way to accommodate that new stuff/required increased quantities of old one, be it 2nd basescape floor or bigger grid, should be provided. More than 8 bases are nice, however the issue is too few space in single base.
I have learned in this thread some facilities now can be build over to get increased space, and sure I can use .rul files to say create storage spaces with 10k capacity, but that's not the point. The point is to have base mechanics fit to game contents, and currently that balance has been a bit off.

So 2nd basescape floor solves that perfectly, and also fit to theme - alien bases have multiple floors, so can we. This also can create another strategic planning layer as now some facilities may be set as available to build only on specific floor.

[skyhawk]

This is kinda ugly, but you could make all 'vanilla' base structures only 2 floors high, and have a higher-tier or upgrade structure that is then 4 floors high, with double the labs, storage, whatever.

If the Defense Battlescape is not limited to 4 levels, you could go even higher!

[Meridian]

All the above causes that vanila basescape grid 6x6, perfect for vanila Ufo:Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep 20 years ago becomes too small nowadays - so some way to accommodate that new stuff/required increased quantities of old one, be it 2nd basescape floor or bigger grid, should be provided.

No... this is not a reason for adding more base space.

I don't know what Nord intended, but it can be only one of the two options:

1/ Nord didn't want you to be able to recruit so many people and to hold so much stuff... that's why he decreased the living quarters capacity in the first place. In this case, there is no bug in the engine and no bug in the mod... all works as intended.

2/ Nord is OK with recruiting many people and storing a lot of stuff... in which case he should either increase (not decrease) living quarters capacity; or provide living quarters upgrades. If this is not possible, then it is a bug/balancing issue in the mod, but still no engine limitation.

I personally think Nord wanted option 1/ ... but I can be wrong... in either case, definitely a mod thing, not an engine thing.


PS: Btw. I played TWoTS quite recently myself (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe0K-GUDQkNLczQ0axbqrpXuDuUYFRYOn)... and I had no problems whatsoever with living quarters/lab/workshop capacity, storage space or base size. Unless something changed dramatically recently, I'd say everything works as intended. Excellent mod!

[MasterBLB]

Well, in fact I've found TWoTS via the videos you've linked, and I'm watching them (though slowly to not spoil fun for myself). At the beginning (up to episode 28 so far) you were selling all ion beam accelerators, implanters, weapons and clips, and all other alien stuff - so it's not surprising you haven't run out of storage space.
Well, speaking about your vids, in some episode you've remodeled whole base, moving facilities of same type near each other - how did you do that?

Assuming newest patch 2,37 for TWoTS I think Nord rather wishes option 2 - but we divert a bit the main question, which is if adding 2nd floor to basescape is possible, and how hard would it to be.

Look at 2nd floor for bases Meridian as an opportunity for:
- new research project, at the beginning bases could have only top floor, to be able to build next one some research would have to be made.
- with doubling single base space there would not be much need to have unlimited number of bases.
- modders could invent plenty of new, cool facilities.
- base defense mission, the part to fight and shoot at atttacking ufo could be extended.
- if you'll figure out a way to add another floor, then future, possible extension to add 3rd and next ones would be already an open road.

[Nord]

I personally think Nord wanted option 1/ ... but I can be wrong... in either case, definitely a mod thing, not an engine thing.

I think that players can decide. Balancing is a hardest part of modmaking.
Yes, this is the first report of "not enough space". And yes, before no one "had problems whatsoever with living quarters/lab/workshop capacity". 

[MasterBLB]

Well @Meridian looks like you've come across storage issues too. You felt lack of storage space in earlier episodes, but this is the 1st one you mention about necessity of dedicated storage base.
Maybe the idea to give another floor for bases is not that bad as you think.

[Meridian]

Well @Meridian looks like you've come across storage issues too. You felt lack of storage space in earlier episodes, but this is the 1st one you mention about necessity of dedicated storage base.
Maybe the idea to give another floor for bases is not that bad as you think.

Excuse me? What "issue"?

From a quick look at the bases in the linked video, I have about 60% of total base space still empty... there is ABSOLUTELY no lack of base space here.
I can still build so many storage facilities that children of my children will not be able to fill them up...

And if you fast-forward to the end of the LP, you will see that the last 3 bases are still practically empty... there's SO MUCH base space I couldn't even think of anything else to build there.

[MasterBLB]

Well, in Ocean Base 1 you have just 2 squares empty. In current store space (262 occupied vs 200 possible) you'd have to build 2 more general stores. But then you won't have space for later needed Biolab and M.C. Lab, not to mention some Transmission Resolver, Naval Control Center, point defense systems + gravitation shield, Bombardment Shield, and other facilities yet to be researched.
Sure, you can create a dedicated base as a store house, in fact I did the same, but that won't solve the issue completely - whenever your aquanauts come back after a mission with loot you practically have full stores again. In the next episode I see you already have troubles to refill explosives reserves immediately after mission - and later in game, when you'll get some interceptor subs you'll face the problem how much space craft torpedo launchers + ammo for them take.

[Meridian]

We're just going in circles...

I do understand what you want to say.
But I do not want, do not plan and do not agree with a feature of having double/triple/quadruple/unlimited base size.

If you run into "issues", you are supposed to:
1. build more facilities (if there is enough space in the base)
2. or upgrade existing facilities
3. or build more facilities in a different base
4. or sell stuff
5. or ask a modder to rebalance the mod (if you're convinced it's not balanced)

End of the story.

Feel free to continue the discussion and brainstorm any new (or old) ideas... but please do not ask me to change my mind about this feature anymore, you're wasting both your time and my time. You're not the first to ask (and most likely not the last either). The feature has been thoroughly considered (already long ago) and the decision is final.

[MasterBLB]

Well, one thing I don't know - how I can upgrade existing facility??

[Solarius Scorch]

I would like to have a base surface level for gameplay/fun reasons, not because something is unbalanced, too hard, too easy, or because it's Thursday.

In my opinion this discussion went in an inappropriate direction. I doubt anyone would seriously consider coding this feature after hearing such arguments, because as Meridian explained, these aren't real problems.

My reasons for requesting this are:
- It would allow surface buildings, which are thematically different (in addition to underground facilities)
- Potentially more interesting base defence missions, with multiple layers but without as much tedium as a wholly underground base would require
- A more interesting base building progress, where you start with surface buildings and then develop underground facilities
- It strongly appeals to my inner kid to have a full cross section of my base, like in G. I. Joe comics and similar sources

[Rubber Cannonball]

I would like to have a base surface level for gameplay/fun reasons, not because something is unbalanced, too hard, too easy, or because it's Thursday.

Is there any way to simulate this with existing functionality?

- It would allow surface buildings, which are thematically different (in addition to underground facilities)
- Potentially more interesting base defence missions, with multiple layers but without as much tedium as a wholly underground base would require

Would it be possible to:
Design your early base facilities with outdoor tile sets.
Fill all the upper levels of the base map with air tiles instead dirt tiles.
Replace all the walled dirt tiles between facilities on the upper levels with empty air tiles or an outdoor surface tile.
Include outdoor light sources to hide the lack of normal day/night behavior.

- A more interesting base building progress, where you start with surface buildings and then develop underground facilities

Early game facilities would only consist of "surface" structures except maybe the access lift.  Later facilities would consist of the same surface structures with added underground floors.  These later facilities could be more advanced versions of early facilities or combination facilities.  A later facility could be built on top of an existing early facility only if the surface portion matched.

I suspect not all of this is possible, but perhaps the problem spots could be identified and be potentially addressed with a much smaller engine change.  Where the base is still a 6x6, 36 facility max base but in battlescape it appears to have 4 or so above ground levels (mostly empty air tiles except the buildings and scenery) and a couple below ground levels.

[wcho035]

I personally is amazed how this has carried so far. Just have 1x1 hangers. First step. You will find out how much base space you free up.. once you only have 4 1x1 hangers in a base. You might not even need this feature once that feature is done.

[WaldoTheRanger]

Is there any way to simulate this with existing functionality?

I made some additional suggestions/speculations on that in this post:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7848.msg123143.html#msg123143

Not sure it's any help, but it's there.