Author Topic: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread  (Read 517342 times)

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #165 on: May 07, 2019, 04:07:46 pm »
Can we have option auto set timer after dog fight to 5 seconds automatically?

The timer is already always set to 5 seconds when the dogfight starts.

Can we have option auto zoom out world map if USO could not be reached due to depth? Same if can not be reached under land. All questions consider TFTD. May be I missed something so I add it here later.

No, I am adding user options only if 100+ users ask for them. And I haven't heard such a request from anyone else.

Offline Yankes

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2019, 08:26:55 pm »
Doesn't this break vanilla behaviour/animation cycles?

As Nord has pointed out this looks extremely odd atm, since the terrain breaks before the projectile hit animation plays out.

Might i suggest moving this change into a seperate dev-branch until this has been sorted out? I'd like to use a version of OXCE that doesn't randomly crash, but right now i'd actually prefer the game to randomly crash instead of having precognitive terrain tiles.

With what version were these changes introduced?
This is already sorted out, and tiles aren't precognitive because damage hit them at this moment. Overall gameplay behavior is exactly same as previously, only moment when animation is play was changed.

This change is important in long run, because damage calculation is done first now then it can affect how explosion will play out, that is impossible in old version.
Example could be that explosion animation is played in random places even if damage do not reach that place, in new version I could add that animations is show only where damage was done.

One thing I have in mind is do not update every tile at once during explosion. Instead do it by circualr "layer" that will simulate propagate of shock wave.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2019, 09:53:59 pm »
This is already sorted out, and tiles aren't precognitive because damage hit them at this moment. Overall gameplay behavior is exactly same as previously, only moment when animation is play was changed.

This change is important in long run, because damage calculation is done first now then it can affect how explosion will play out, that is impossible in old version.
Example could be that explosion animation is played in random places even if damage do not reach that place, in new version I could add that animations is show only where damage was done.

One thing I have in mind is do not update every tile at once during explosion. Instead do it by circualr "layer" that will simulate propagate of shock wave.
Excuse me, but this seems like a pretty important change as far as animation behaviour is concerned, in a mod that prides itself on keeping/preserving vanilla consistency. Going by this you could also do away with the shooting animation entirely and just show the results instead.

As far as i am concerned the tiles are 'precognitive', since the only inidication that any damage has been delat is when the hit animation plays - which is does after the terrain tile is already destroyed. Damage calculation in-game isn't transparent to the player. I'd ask you to reconsider and at least give us an option to enable vanilla behaviour (for animations).

Can you tell me when this change was introduced?

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2019, 10:29:27 pm »
Can you tell me when this change was introduced?

It was introduced on March 17th.

Offline Yankes

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #169 on: May 08, 2019, 11:23:30 pm »
Excuse me, but this seems like a pretty important change as far as animation behaviour is concerned, in a mod that prides itself on keeping/preserving vanilla consistency. Going by this you could also do away with the shooting animation entirely and just show the results instead.
This is priority of OXC not OXCE. When I start OXCE, my main goal was modding capacity of engine even when sacrificing original behavior.
See: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,6459.0.html
If new behavior have similar (not same!) end effect and give more options for modder then I throw through the window original behavior.

And here we have exactly this case, changing order is very visible but end result is same. As it give lot of potential for new mod capabilities and code refactor that will simplify and allow future changes and new functionalities. And only thing left is personal taste and familiarity with old behavior.

For single hit animation current version look even better IMHO.


As far as i am concerned the tiles are 'precognitive', since the only inidication that any damage has been delat is when the hit animation plays - which is does after the terrain tile is already destroyed. Damage calculation in-game isn't transparent to the player. I'd ask you to reconsider and at least give us an option to enable vanilla behaviour (for animations).
People evaporate in nuclear strike before shock wave reach them.

Options to toggle it is out out question, because whole point of this change was to simplify game logic not add new cases and versions. Whole point is that I could really on this that calculation was done before all animations.

Only thing that could be done (as I said previous post) to alter how tiles are handled after damage calculations. That could allow delay update of tiles to some frames after hit, but this need more work and right now I have other priorities.

Right now you are only one I know who is very against this change, if there was more demand for changing it, from more people, then I could consider to alter current behavior. Other wise I leave this as is.

Offline Eddie

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2019, 03:46:09 pm »
About moral damage, as reportet here:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4058.msg112656.html#msg112656

Moral damage, as in weapons dealing damage to moral, is multiplied by: (110 - bravery)/100

This works fine as long as the maximum bravery is 100. Since mods introduced bravery adding armors, bravery 100+ is now possible. While immunity to moral damage at 110 bravery is debatable, damage inversion for bravery >110 is clearly a bug.

How to solve? Treat everything >110 bravery as 110 (immunity) or treat everything >100 as 100? Other options?

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #171 on: May 13, 2019, 05:28:03 pm »
How to solve?

Solution 1: don't create such armors

Solution 2: don't create such weapons

Solution 3: use scripts to implement your own damage algorithm with whatever rules you can think of

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2019, 03:24:00 am »
About moral damage, as reportet here:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4058.msg112656.html#msg112656

Moral damage, as in weapons dealing damage to moral, is multiplied by: (110 - bravery)/100

This works fine as long as the maximum bravery is 100. Since mods introduced bravery adding armors, bravery 100+ is now possible. While immunity to moral damage at 110 bravery is debatable, damage inversion for bravery >110 is clearly a bug.

How to solve? Treat everything >110 bravery as 110 (immunity) or treat everything >100 as 100? Other options?

I don't like the way bravery picks up slowly at first, but then accelerates until suddenly hitting the top. But there are some ways to work around it.

If you have weapons that deal morale damage based on bravery, then I would recommend being careful to not allow bravery to go above 110, and maybe make it very difficult to bring it above 100. Perhaps if your soldiers max out at 100, you could have a special expensive armor which grants 10 bravery. Or you could have regular soldiers max at 90 and special high-tech soldiers able to reach 100. If you allow the soldier natural max to get most of the way up, and put a high cost on adding any more bravery externally, then it's easier to manage.

Another thing you might be able to do (I assume it's possible) is to have it deal damage to morale based on its power value, or at least have a flat value added to the bravery-based morale damage. That way you can ignore the 110 bravery's natural fear immunity and be able to deal morale damage to units with much higher bravery values, as long as they don't have actual fear immunity.

Offline Shiroi Bara

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #173 on: May 14, 2019, 01:55:26 pm »
Let's back to dogfight speed. I don't know is this a bug or not, but if you encounter USO under land and pursuit it with fast speed (1 minute or more) as soon as it going to water and dogfight phase begins, speed of your interceptor not drops down to 5 seconds when USO successfully drowned. Can not provide any save files, you have to check it manually.

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #174 on: May 14, 2019, 02:38:37 pm »
In my opinion, not a bug.

Can be changed if enough people think it is a bug.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:57:20 pm by Meridian »

Offline Shiroi Bara

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #175 on: May 16, 2019, 06:33:54 pm »
If Interceptor used to escort you friendly craft and got attacked on the way, it's loosing his escort target after dogfight is over and turning to base. Bug?

Offline Eddie

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #176 on: May 16, 2019, 09:14:20 pm »
I don't like the way bravery picks up slowly at first, but then accelerates until suddenly hitting the top. But there are some ways to work around it.

If you have weapons that deal morale damage based on bravery, then I would recommend being careful to not allow bravery to go above 110, and maybe make it very difficult to bring it above 100. Perhaps if your soldiers max out at 100, you could have a special expensive armor which grants 10 bravery. Or you could have regular soldiers max at 90 and special high-tech soldiers able to reach 100. If you allow the soldier natural max to get most of the way up, and put a high cost on adding any more bravery externally, then it's easier to manage.

Another thing you might be able to do (I assume it's possible) is to have it deal damage to morale based on its power value, or at least have a flat value added to the bravery-based morale damage. That way you can ignore the 110 bravery's natural fear immunity and be able to deal morale damage to units with much higher bravery values, as long as they don't have actual fear immunity.

You missunderstand. Damage to morals, as in:
Code: [Select]
damageAlter:
ToMorale: 1.0

is multiplied by
(110 - bravery)/100
with bravery being the bravery stat of the target! Not the weapon holder!

That is why I reported it here as a bug. The "ToMorale" parameter of OXCE has this scaling right now, whether you want it or not.

Regarding:
"Solution 1: don't create such armors"
Why allow +bravery armors in the ruleset if that is you opinion?

"Solution 2: don't create such weapons"
Why allow "ToMorale" as an option in the "damageAlter" category, if that is your opinion? Any weapon that uses "ToMorale" displays the described behavior. I would say fix it or scrap it.

"Solution 3: use scripts to implement your own damage algorithm with whatever rules you can think of"
I don't want to create any weapons, I'm just reporting on a sign inversion bug using simple ruleset options of OXCE that are used alot in the Piratez mod.

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #177 on: May 16, 2019, 09:16:29 pm »
If Interceptor used to escort you friendly craft and got attacked on the way, it's loosing his escort target after dogfight is over and turning to base. Bug?

No, not a bug.

Offline Meridian

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2019, 09:28:52 pm »
Regarding:
"Solution 1: don't create such armors"
Why allow +bravery armors in the ruleset if that is you opinion?

"Solution 2: don't create such weapons"
Why allow "ToMorale" as an option in the "damageAlter" category, if that is your opinion? Any weapon that uses "ToMorale" displays the described behavior. I would say fix it or scrap it.

"Solution 3: use scripts to implement your own damage algorithm with whatever rules you can think of"
I don't want to create any weapons, I'm just reporting on a sign inversion bug using simple ruleset options of OXCE that are used alot in the Piratez mod.

1/ I did not allow +bravery armors. Also, it's not my opinion, it's just a possible option.

2/ I have also not implemented ToMorale option. Again, it's not my opinion, just giving you options.

3/ I didn't say you need to create any weapons, I just said you can change the damage algorithm (even for all weapons at once)


Anyway, there are a million things you can change in the ruleset to break the game.
I cannot fix them all, the only way to fix them all is to remove modding capability completely.
Modders always try to change more and more... until it breaks; there's absolutely no way for me to stop that from happening.
And making it even more moddable, doesn't solve the problem, just adds more ways how to break the game.
Yankes has listened to your needs for changing everything imaginable around damage calculation and has given you a tool to do that (scripts).
If you want to change how the morale damage works, you can!

The "ToMorale" parameter of OXCE has this scaling right now, whether you want it or not.

Not true.
If you don't want it, you can already today script your own damage algorithm.

--

If you have a concrete solution for this "bug", please tell us. And ask all modders if I can change it too.
Until then I consider this a feature, not a bug.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 09:40:52 pm by Meridian »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: OXCE (OpenXcom Extended) main thread
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2019, 10:38:33 pm »
For the record, I have no objections to changing this. I'm neutral.