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Author Topic: [WIP/IDEA]EXTRA MAP NODES FOR VANILLA MAPS  (Read 2840 times)

Offline FeruEnzeru[RETIRED/I QUIT]

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[WIP/IDEA]EXTRA MAP NODES FOR VANILLA MAPS
« on: May 09, 2018, 07:12:35 am »
When i was middle of thinking and figuring out about something to do with map nodes while i was on my hiatus with modding OXC, WC3 and SC1.

I have an idea of increasing the number of nodes on each vanilla/original XCOM map.

I did this...:

BEFORE

AFTER

I've added like 4 nodes on a copy of the CULTA00 map so that i might try to test this out on OXC/OXCE+.

Pretty adequate somehow.

Maybe i'll do more extra nodes on the copies of the original maps later i think, probably 8 or 12 or 16 nodes on each map.

EDIT: Did added 8 Extra Nodes to this copy of the map.


12 or 18 or both extra will be later i suppose. ;)

EDIT2:
Added a Comparison of the Medium UFO's Extra Nodes placement


Now to do some more later. Also, gotta be quiet.  :-X

EDIT3:
Now did CULTA05 Extra Nodes Comparison.

Well that was a big tough and hard to do. I can't do more than 5 links (5 is the limit of Map Node links) because that's the limit of making map nodes. Sorry! :(

EDIT4:
Done CULTA09's Extra Map Nodes.
See comparison.

Pretty hard to know and learn. XD

EDIT5:
I'm done with the nodes, i've tested the map tileset Cultivated, but the node are working.

Take a look at swarm of them sexy Grey alien babies. :3

The nodes worked. ^o^
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:14:16 am by FeruEnzeru »

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2018, 12:40:05 pm »
Nice idea! I did a thing like that in my mod, but I got lazy and only added just enough to scrape by. You should add more nodes to all the terrain and post the map files here. Most of the terrain has way too few nodes, so few a lot of aliens won't even spawn.


The Farm terrain has the nodes done really well, so if you ever get confused on what any of the node data means, you can refer to those maps to see how it is used.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2018, 01:07:04 pm »
Yeah, both Dioxine and I did that for a number of vanilla terrains. It's a good direction.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2018, 06:55:08 pm »
Adding more route nodes to the vanilla maps is redundant for both proposes of spawning and patrolling.

This is a list of the maximum number of aliens that can be encountered on Superhuman difficulty on the vanilla missions:

Code: [Select]
                    MAX ALIENS
SMALL SCOUT         1
MEDIUM SCOUT          9
LARGE SCOUT            13
ABDUCTOR        21
HARVESTER        21
TERROR SHIP            25
BATTLESHIP      28
SUPPLY SHIP      20
ALIEN BASE ASSAULT 28
BASE DEFENSE          28
MARS                 20
CYDONIA            31
TERROR MISSION        24 (and 16 civilians)

Of the 9 possible aliens present on a Medium Scout, 6 will be Soldiers (and 60% of them will spawn outside the UFO) and 3 will be Navigators (and 20% will spawn outside the UFO). The vanilla Medium Scout has 10 spawn points - more than it is required.

As other examples: Large Scout - it has a max of 13 aliens and just the UFO has 19 spawn points (not counting the aliens that will spawn outside the UFO; Harvester has a max of 21 aliens, UFO has 35+ spawn nodes; etc.

The main issue with the lack of spawn nodes *might* happen on the Terror Mission sites, if the RNG chooses maps that don't have enough nodes to spawn a maximum of 24 aliens and 16 civilians. But the original game also had limitations that automatically reduced the number of units present - the data format could only store a maximum of 80 units during missions.

On an early terror site, those 80 units will have to be distributed as:
* XCom - 14 (using the Skyranger)
* Aliens - 54 (2x2 units count as 4)
* Civilians - 16

So, on the original it would be always impossible to place the maximum theoretical number of units (84) on a Terror Site because the engine could only handle 80 units. And if you brought an Avenger with 26 units, that leaves only 54 slots left to place Aliens/Civilians... and this makes Terror Sites easier because you'll automatically encounter less aliens/civilians.

What OpenXCom changed was to remove the 80 unit limit and automatically add aliens/civilians if there weren't enough spawn nodes for them on the maps.

My personal opinion is that this goes against how the original was designed - you brought an Avenger to a terror mission, you'd be automatically 'rewarded' by the game's design with less aliens present, although you'd need to know the game mechanics to learn this. And if there wasn't enough spawn nodes for all the aliens, the original game simply removed them.

And yes, all of this happened because of a technical limitation of the original that doesn't exist anymore in OpenXCom. But the removal of that limitation in OXC does not change that the whole tactical layer was originally designed with the 80 unit limit in mind and that if there wasn't enough nodes for aliens, the units would simply be removed.

As for using additional nodes for patrolling they're also redundant - but I won't get in more detail here :)

Offline FeruEnzeru[RETIRED/I QUIT]

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2018, 08:05:56 pm »
Yeah, both Dioxine and I did that for a number of vanilla terrains. It's a good direction.
Yeah, i want do that stuff in case of doing more nodes afaik. I have to test these after i'm done with 17 of the 18 vanilla Cultivated Maps along with any number of vanilla maps i'm up against.

Thanks for your kind words, Scorch. :)
Nice idea! I did a thing like that in my mod, but I got lazy and only added just enough to scrape by.
Thank you, but you'll have to harder. :)
You should add more nodes to all the terrain and post the map files here.
That's alright, the "Extra Vanilla Map Nods" for Cultivated are not done yet.

I'll try posting a zip file of the maps until i'm done with 17 or 18 maps.

It can be a agreeable point by now. :)
Most of the terrain has way too few nodes, so few a lot of aliens won't even spawn.
Yeah, sometimes multi-spawning Aliens might not work unless you, or I or anyone testing the maps.
The Farm terrain has the nodes done really well, so if you ever get confused on what any of the node data means, you can refer to those maps to see how it is used.
That's a fair point. I can get confused whatever i'm working or not testing the extra nodes for the map.

There are 18 maps of the Cultivated, but i can find what number of map category tilesets/terrain have on MVII.

I'll try checking it out.

Offline FeruEnzeru[RETIRED/I QUIT]

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2018, 08:08:01 pm »
Adding more route nodes to the vanilla maps is redundant for both proposes of spawning and patrolling.
Yeah, i quite get it. I think you're kinda right about this.
This is a list of the maximum number of aliens that can be encountered on Superhuman difficulty on the vanilla missions:

Code: [Select]
                    MAX ALIENS
SMALL SCOUT         1
MEDIUM SCOUT          9
LARGE SCOUT            13
ABDUCTOR        21
HARVESTER        21
TERROR SHIP            25
BATTLESHIP      28
SUPPLY SHIP      20
ALIEN BASE ASSAULT 28
BASE DEFENSE          28
MARS                 20
CYDONIA            31
TERROR MISSION        24 (and 16 civilians)

Of the 9 possible aliens present on a Medium Scout, 6 will be Soldiers (and 60% of them will spawn outside the UFO) and 3 will be Navigators (and 20% will spawn outside the UFO). The vanilla Medium Scout has 10 spawn points - more than it is required.

As other examples: Large Scout - it has a max of 13 aliens and just the UFO has 19 spawn points (not counting the aliens that will spawn outside the UFO; Harvester has a max of 21 aliens, UFO has 35+ spawn nodes; etc.
True, even Superhuman can or can't have more spawn chances. But it can or can't bypass the limits.
The main issue with the lack of spawn nodes *might* happen on the Terror Mission sites, if the RNG chooses maps that don't have enough nodes to spawn a maximum of 24 aliens and 16 civilians. But the original game also had limitations that automatically reduced the number of units present - the data format could only store a maximum of 80 units during missions.

On an early terror site, those 80 units will have to be distributed as:
* XCom - 14 (using the Skyranger)
* Aliens - 54 (2x2 units count as 4)
* Civilians - 16

So, on the original it would be always impossible to place the maximum theoretical number of units (84) on a Terror Site because the engine could only handle 80 units. And if you brought an Avenger with 26 units, that leaves only 54 slots left to place Aliens/Civilians... and this makes Terror Sites easier because you'll automatically encounter less aliens/civilians.
Okay, i didn't there might a limit for 80 units for the game. :|
Fairly surprising.
What OpenXCom changed was to remove the 80 unit limit and automatically add aliens/civilians if there weren't enough spawn nodes for them on the maps.
That can be true. Buti  like the idea of swarms of Alien squads being spawned in a lot map nodes, but you or i can find spawn info with map view nodes.
My personal opinion is that this goes against how the original was designed - you brought an Avenger to a terror mission, you'd be automatically 'rewarded' by the game's design with less aliens present, although you'd need to know the game mechanics to learn this. And if there wasn't enough spawn nodes for all the aliens, the original game simply removed them.
You might be right, is UFOpedia or XCOM wikia the only way to know the game mechanics?
And yes, all of this happened because of a technical limitation of the original that doesn't exist anymore in OpenXCom. But the removal of that limitation in OXC does not change that the whole tactical layer was originally designed with the 80 unit limit in mind and that if there wasn't enough nodes for aliens, the units would simply be removed.

As for using additional nodes for patrolling they're also redundant - but I won't get in more detail here :)
Okay i see. Thank you for letting me know about this after you replied and Scorch and Reaver replied.
I'll try and learn what to do with testing the extra nodes, along with the game mechanics by reading and learning them on XCOM wikis.

How 'bout that? :D

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2018, 08:50:09 pm »
Redundant? Maybe for vanilla, but certainly not with what I'm doing.

Offline FeruEnzeru[RETIRED/I QUIT]

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Re: [WIP/IDEA]EXTRA MAP NODES FOR VANILLA MAPS
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2018, 09:35:41 pm »
Now did a comparison of the CULTA05 map.
EDIT:
Now Done CULTA09's Extra Nodes, see the comparison. I'll post the tileset after i'm done finishing the others.
See OP here. :)

EDIT2:
And there goes another swarm of Sectoids with no terror units.


Let's try breaking the limits later-ish. XD
EDIT3:
Did another thing of the "Extra Nodes" stuff, i'll post them today/tonight or tomorrow after birthday messages (on HIVE and OXC forums).

Here's the test screenshot of an army of Sectoids.

I'll testing other races, like Floaters, Snakemen, Mutons, Ethereals or Mixed. Time to be trying some Alien Deployment edits now. ^^
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:16:34 am by FeruEnzeru »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 05:15:10 am »
You might be right, is UFOpedia or XCOM wikia the only way to know the game mechanics?

UFOpaedia.org - the XCOM Wikia didn't had any content of the original games last time I checked

Offline FeruEnzeru[RETIRED/I QUIT]

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Re: Guess what i did at Midnight? :3
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 05:18:07 am »
UFOpaedia.org - the XCOM Wikia didn't had any content of the original games last time I checked
Good, i think i forgot about .org part. I'll look forward finding the game mechanics on UFOpaedia.org so that i might read and learn them today/tonight or tomorrow.

I gotta be working on stuff later i suppose.

EDIT: Mind if i post the test stuff maybe. :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:37:55 pm by FeruEnzeru »

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: [WIP/IDEA]EXTRA MAP NODES FOR VANILLA MAPS
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 03:33:53 pm »
Adding more route nodes to the vanilla maps is redundant for both proposes of spawning and patrolling.

The wilderness tilesets all had so few spawn points it was actually normal for aliens to fail to spawn even if you just brought a skyranger. On a large scout mission you could get 10+ aliens and have most spawn outside the craft, yet wind up with 5 or fewer spawn points. All of the open terrain had no spawn points at all. Most of the spawn points in wilderness tilesets were on the 2x2 segments, and it was not uncommon to get few or none of those. If either craft spawned away from the map edge, it was much more likely to fail to get the 2x2 segments. So it wasn't uncommon for a large scout on high difficulty to fail to spawn at least one alien. But on supply ships and terror ships on genius or superhuman, it was actually uncommon to get all of the aliens. This is why the number of aliens listed in the ruleset is higher than you're probably used to seeing, and also why you tend to get more aliens on farm tilesets.

The lack of nodes had nothing to do with the game's limitation; rather it was due to the dev team failing to complete the nodes on several tilesets. The only tileset that actually looks finished is the Farm, all the rest look like they slipped in the bare minimum nodes with the plan to get back to them, and just never did. Or perhaps they slipped in the bare minimum at the last minute because release was coming up.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 03:37:51 pm by The Reaver of Darkness »