[Documentation] Scout/Sniper AI

[Vakrug]

All right, the conclusion to all of this is if you want to remain unseen -- don't shoot, use grenades!

So while I share your frustrations regarding the sniper-spotter mechanic, this lack of stealth isn't really 'vanilla' sniper-spotter's fault.

It is not the mechanics itself is what I am frustrated about. It is the developers attitude: "AI will cheat, but we will not tell players about that! Players will never find that out, just feels more challenges!"

Oh, do you know how I was frustrated while playing Civ6? There are megabytes of civilopeadia articles about game mechanics and NOT A SINGLE WORD about what affects difficulty level and how construction time increases with each unit/building built! And this is not the most sinister example...

[Scamps]

AI will cheat, but we will not tell players about that

Piratez show whether your unit is spotted for some armors. So there is technical possibility, but no one has done a mod yet.

Edit: That's how I learned that hitting a spotter counts ;-)

If you meant documentation, not ingame, your concern is valid. Just dont be too harsh on developers. Documentation being the last thing in development cycle is pretty common. Some projects don't have any

[Vakrug]

Just dont be too harsh on developers. Documentation being the last thing in development cycle is pretty common.

The first post of this thread supposed to be the documentation. It is literally written there! And yet it is so misleading, that I guess it is done by purpose. Was it so hard to add something like "hitting spotter with projectile also reveals"? Especially after the discussion.

[Meridian]

Sorry for rudeness, but this is very crappy documentation. Nothing in the first post indicates that a soldier gets spotted if it hits a spotter! Even after some discussion about this in the next posts. Do you think that it is such a small and insignificant detail, that is is not worth mentioning?

It is not documented there, because it was not added in this feature.
Marking the shooter as spotted when hitting the enemy has been in the game since 1994.

Some details here (offset 8 ): https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/UNITPOS.DAT

Do you think that it is such a small and insignificant detail, that is is not worth mentioning?

It's definitely a significant detail.
But I don't see a need to document something that is (or should) be documented elsewhere already.

Nothing in the first post indicates that the spotter may die or fall unconscious if it is hit
Should we have documented that as well?

It is not the mechanics itself is what I am frustrated about. It is the developers attitude: "AI will cheat, but we will not tell players about that! Players will never find that out, just feels more challenges!"

Barking up the wrong tree here.
I don't like it either, but I won't remove it, because it is vanilla.
Go take the argument with Julian.

[Vakrug]

Marking the shooter as spotted when hitting the enemy has been in the game since 1994.

That is a really big news to me!
Now I have more questions and some old questions should be repeated.
So, what I understood from the UNITPOS.DAT article, is that "being spotted BY REGULAR alien" allows psi attack, but not regular attacks. And with this new Scout/Sniper AI it is possible to "be spotted by A SPOTTER" and that will open door for shooting and grenade throwing, am I right?
Also it looks like damaging alien with a grenade opens door for psi attacks, but not shooting even if that alien was a spotter.

Now I hate unstructured and unsearchable articles in ufopaedia.org even more...

[psavola]

As already noted, I believe the "vanilla spotting" feature - which depends on the intelligence values - is something very different than scout/sniper feature, because in vanilla the enemy units can't shoot at you unless they have personally obtained a vision at you on that specific turn (but they can do PSI attacks and I believe blaster launcher shots as well, but I don't think it applies to grenades).

There was extensive discussion and testing on sniper/spotter mechanics in XCF thread recently (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,8199.msg155034.html#msg155034) and Juku who made a lot of tests summed it up pretty well here. I'll mention the thread here for the references and more detail. My XCF playtesting also confirms it that throwing grenades (provided that instant grenades is turned off) does not trigger "spotting", and I have used the tactic of throwing a lot of grenades and intentionally not shooting anyone who is a "spotter" for the first 10 turns or so, a very viable tactic in certain missions where there are a lot of spotters and snipers (where, in addition to shooting, the snipers are also very liable to throw grenades at you). If you just throw grenades, from the cover of darkness and/or smoke, neither the spotters or snipers can do anything against you unless they personally come close enough to spot my troops - otherwise you would get bombarded with dozens of shots and grenades.

[Meridian]

As already noted, I believe the "vanilla spotting" feature - which depends on the intelligence values - is something very different than scout/sniper feature, because in vanilla the enemy units can't shoot at you unless they have personally obtained a vision at you on that specific turn

Not sure what to tell you, but just try shooting a Muton into the back with a pistol... he will turn around and shoot back at you without ever seeing you.

So, what I understood from the UNITPOS.DAT article, is that "being spotted BY REGULAR alien" allows psi attack, but not regular attacks.

It allows psi attacks and launcher attacks without LOS.

It doesn't allow normal attacks without LOS.

But it's not "useless", the alien AI can and does use the "spotted" flag for decision making. For example to set up an ambush, etc.
(Don't ask how, I won't have the time or patience to explain.)

And with this new Scout/Sniper AI it is possible to "be spotted by A SPOTTER" and that will open door for shooting and grenade throwing, am I right?

With Scout/Sniper turned on, the snipers are allowed to shoot/grenade the scouted targets also without LOS.
That's the only difference (and the heart of this feature).

Now I hate unstructured and unsearchable articles in ufopaedia.org even more...

@everybody: Xcom is complex, more complex than you know. No matter how much you know, or how much you think you know, you always know less than 20%. Btw. I am no exception to this rule. No one is. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you'll be able to play and enjoy this game without losing hair.

[Meridian]

Piratez show whether your unit is spotted for some armors. So there is technical possibility, but no one has done a mod yet.

Edit: That's how I learned that hitting a spotter counts ;-)

If you meant documentation, not ingame, your concern is valid. Just dont be too harsh on developers. Documentation being the last thing in development cycle is pretty common. Some projects don't have any

Just FYI, before someone asks, those armors indicate the classic vanilla spotted flag.

There is no possibility to indicate the scouted flag yet.
(but it would be trivial to add such support)

[Vakrug]

@everybody: Xcom is complex, more complex than you know. No matter how much you know, or how much you think you know, you always know less than 20%. Btw. I am no exception to this rule. No one is. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you'll be able to play and enjoy this game without losing hair.

Again... 
You walk into scientific library and noticed that all books are scattered completely randomly. Some books hide inside other books, some are hidden in almost inaccessible corners. And when you ask a libraryman how to navigate in all of this and where is table of content, libraryman answers with "science is a complex thing!" then turns around and sacrifices few animals to the statue of Wikipedia...

[Nord]

Sorry if i use wrong topic.

A question: if sniper/spotter algorithm allows aliens to shoot from afar, will it work for melee enemy, allowing them to move to spotted non-visible prey?

[Meridian]

A question: if sniper/spotter algorithm allows aliens to shoot from afar, will it work for melee enemy, allowing them to move to spotted non-visible prey?

No, there is no such functionality implemented atm.