[TFTD] [Expansion] TWoTS+ Release (v.2.62)

[MasterBLB]

Have you tried to hit bee swarm with a stick? It is not a bug, it is intended.

In such circumstances at least one bee would be hit, so it's not good analogy.
I suggest to change behavior - remove 100% evade, but put very high melee resistance for Locust Shell, like 20%, or 10% even. Result will be identical to what you intended (melee ineffective against Locust), but without that bug-like behavior.

[Nord]

They are not immune. Other weapon with melee damage type (like tangler) will hit them with full strength. They just use tiny loftemp. Number 78 actually. You can look here: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/LOFTEMPS.DAT

[MasterBLB]

I see. Well, from player's perspective it looked like something was wrong, as few dozen attempts with near 100% hit chance failed - therefore the report. If you insist to keep the current mechanic at least mention something like "Locust swarm can greatly evade melee attacks, it's very hard to hit them this way." in UFOpedia for topic "Locust" so no one else in the future will be surprised.

[Nord]

If you insist to keep the current mechanic at least mention something like "Locust swarm can greatly evade melee attacks, it's very hard to hit them this way." in UFOpedia for topic "Locust" so no one else in the future will be surprised.

Ok.

[Amoebka]

Any plans to make jelly weapons tradable after the treaty? If you keep them hostile you can farm easy missions for score and special weapons, while all the treaty gives you is 3 technologies only 1 of which is at least somewhat useful. Almost feels like the game punishes you for being a good guy and acting diplomatic.

[Nord]

Any plans to make jelly weapons tradable after the treaty? If you keep them hostile you can farm easy missions for score and special weapons, while all the treaty gives you is 3 technologies only 1 of which is at least somewhat useful. Almost feels like the game punishes you for being a good guy and acting diplomatic.

Hmm. Maybe. For unholy amount of zrbite maybe?

[Amoebka]

Hmm. Maybe. For unholy amount of zrbite maybe?

Well, probably not too unholy. My point is, making a treaty should be better than not making a treaty. If the weapons are too expensive then you still leave them hostile to farm and nothing changes.

Oh, and maybe it should be something other than zrbite. Zrbite is already used for tons of stuff, while many other fluff items have barely any uses. Biotechs like jellies would probably appreciate stuff like cloning or implanters more.

[MasterBLB]

Found something weird - zrbite ammunition leads to zrbite ammunition in tech tree viewer, see the attachment.

[Amoebka]

Wait a second, you changed melee weapon TU costs to flat without changing the numbers. That makes them about two times worse overall.

[Nord]

In fact, numbers has been changed. But not to vanilla.

[Amoebka]

I happened to look at the vibro knife, which was 9% and is now 9 flat. Alien blades seem to lose 10% or less from the cost (25% to 23 flat, etc).
Since aquanauts are on average 65 TU (starting 50, training cap at 70, hard cap at 80), which is 35% lower than 100 TU, this is overall still a huge nerf.

I wonder if nerfing melee further is necessary. Ideally stabbing someone in melee should be more powerful than point blank shooting (otherwise why bother with melee weapons at all).

[Mathel]

I wonder if nerfing melee further is necessary. Ideally stabbing someone in melee should be more powerful than point blank shooting (otherwise why bother with melee weapons at all).

Considering CQC does not seem to be implemented, there does not seem to be much point to melee other than stunning.
You could autoshot from point blank and have almost guaranteed hits, or attack in melee and likely miss.

One use I found would be killing Lobstermen before you get powerful enough guns.

Also, termal taser still has 100% hit chance regardless of skill (80% with other hand occupied.)

[Nord]

It is questionable. I am not satisfied with current situation, but i have done it before with some purpose. I just cant remember it. I can reconsider melee costs, but to which numbers?

[Amoebka]

This will be a long and complicated post. I can write it in russian if that will make it easier for you to read (russian is my first language anyway).

Right now your numbers seem to be based around snap shots of comparable sonic weapons (given the average 65 TU soldier). Thermic lance costs about the same as sonic rifle snap and does similar damage, vibro blade costs the same as sonic pistol snap and does similar damage, etc.

I don't think this is quite reasonable. Melee weapons should be better in melee than point blank shots, not same or worse. You need to run up risking reaction fire every step, risking melee reactions, leaving yourself out in the open, and if you miss the alien will shoot you point blank. Plus for whatever reason all melee weapons have absolute garbage accuracy in the mod, while point blank rifle fire almost never misses, which means melee should be a lot faster than shooting to be balanced.

Personally I think accuracy is the bigger problem with melee right now, but for TU costs some suggestions would be:
1) Lower the number by about 35-40% (9% to 6 flat for vibro knife, 20% to 12 flat for vibro blade, etc). This way the weapons will be about the same effectiveness as they were in 2.36 for average soldiers, worse than before for rookies and better than before for maxed-out veterans.
2) Assume that an average soldier should be able to land a successful melee attack for less TU than a successful point blank shot from a similar sonic weapon. This is where melee accuracy really ruins the day. Average starting soldier only has 30 melee accuracy, further penalised by the weapon. Assuming pool training is mandatory, we can say 50 melee accuracy is the average. This means that vibro blade, for example, needs to be twice as fast as point blank snaps from a sonic pistol, which is also around 12 TU per attack.

I think the best course of action is to adjust the numbers by 35-40% and then raise the accuracy of weapons that need it (thermic lance, heavy lance and trident, unless it is supposed to be really bad).

[MasterBLB]

It is questionable. I am not satisfied with current situation, but i have done it before with some purpose. I just cant remember it. I can reconsider melee costs, but to which numbers?

Well, from playing vanila TFTD 20 years ago I remember I wasn't using Heavy Thermic Lances due to 16-18 TU attack cost which I've found too high for practical use - by practical use I mean oneshooting a lobsterman. I stuck with Vibro Bladess/Thermic Lances whose attacks cost around 7-11 TU if I recall correctly, and whose (Thermic Lance) was able to put lobsterman down in 2 hits just like heavy version, while oneshooting practically all other aliens.