[TFTD] [Expansion] TWoTS+ Release (v.2.61)

[psavola]

I saw something strange 2.56 in the barge mission. Two times I saw a ghost through walls and doors. Below screenshot and save an example. This seems to be specific to ghosts, not sure if it is specific to this mission type.

[psavola]

Barge nad Biolab are  difficult but ..
  - if you place weapons in backpack Ai would not  equip them  ..
  - exosuits and pure knives work extremly well  vs aquatoids
  - you can stun first medic , take them to hand and abort mission

I think you meant navigator (for obtaining enhanced aquatoid navigator).

Just for kicks, I tried Biolab mission in my SH/IM campaign with 3 gauss drones and 6 aquanauts and got wiped. But with better luck or planning I might have barely made it. I'd still suggest not  trying it if you're playing ironman. The problem was that my final gauss drone ran out of ammo, and the two others had been destroyed with maybe 10-15 ammo left. The enhanced aquatoids were already panicking now and then, but I suppose there were still at least 5-10 left. My initial mistake was taking even greater risks to capture a live navigator and exposing some of my aquanauts. I should have just hidden away the aquanauts until the gauss heavy drones had cleared out most enemies and their morale is low. So with these properties the mission might be doable, but it requires luck and a careful strategy while conserving drone ammo (you'll have to shoot from the close range to make sure you won't miss too often). Maybe doable if you are ready to do reloads, but not really feasible in an ironman campaign.

I didn't use exosuits, though. I doubt that would have made a significant difference, as AFAIK drills, sonic cannons, thermal shok bombs, even blasta rifles can still hurt you, some of them badly. If you drop your hand-held weapons, you can already avoid MC'd aqunauts harming your crew (the bigger problem with MC is the guys will run out somewhere else where they''ll get killed the next turn).

[murkhach@centrum.cz]

According to my playthrough  when I had smooth flow of gaining technologies the Sonic technology seems to  coming quite late.
 
 - self propelled projectiles  - OK      - gain early decent technology for hitting aliens
 - heavy aquatic weapons   - Great  - absolute need for killing monsters     (later zrbite amo is very powerfull - maybe consider some races to be less vulnerable to explosives )
 - Shard weapons                - Good  - reasonable requirements
 - gauss technology             - Good  - sniper rifles are great   (may be  do make it  little bit harder to obtain)
 - sonic                                 - Good  - but extremly hard to gain 
               in my opinion  alien implants should be dependent on  (examination room & medic  - able to gain from  barge)  while advanced bionic still depends  on medic_plus 
               to unlock  thermal launcher - I suggest requirements of   implants & commander & alien weapons
               to unlock  sonic                      I suggest requirements of   implants & commander & alien weapons  &  gauss
 - PWT  & Ion                       -             they should come far later after sonic (maybe trident should depend on Naga guards & naga  city)

[DSeyka]

Are you supposed to have Hydro-Jet Cannons available to buy right from the start? Tech tree seems to suggests otherwise.
Also, the game doesn't allow me to put Scout Drone on a craft for some reason (I have the crew space available).

[psavola]

According to my playthrough  when I had smooth flow of gaining technologies the Sonic technology seems to  coming quite late.
 
 - self propelled projectiles  - OK      - gain early decent technology for hitting aliens
 - heavy aquatic weapons   - Great  - absolute need for killing monsters     (later zrbite amo is very powerfull - maybe consider some races to be less vulnerable to explosives )
 - Shard weapons                - Good  - reasonable requirements
 - gauss technology             - Good  - sniper rifles are great   (may be  do make it  little bit harder to obtain)
 - sonic                                 - Good  - but extremly hard to gain 
               in my opinion  alien implants should be dependent on  (examination room & medic  - able to gain from  barge)  while advanced bionic still depends  on medic_plus 
               to unlock  thermal launcher - I suggest requirements of   implants & commander & alien weapons
               to unlock  sonic                      I suggest requirements of   implants & commander & alien weapons  &  gauss
 - PWT  & Ion                       -             they should come far later after sonic (maybe trident should depend on Naga guards & naga  city)

For what it's worth, typically you'lll get examination room and hence sonic eventually one way or the other - typically a very large ufo, sometimes a barge. But this has a RNG dependency so it might not hurt if there was a way to make this slightly more reliable.

In my current campaign, I'm already in October, but I have seen only one (landing) very large ufo, but it was on the other side of the globe, so I couldn't catch it. No barges so far. So progress-wise I'm kinda stuck (I also haven't had any useful new research to do for about a month). Usually I have a bionic lab already being built in August-September timeframe. But we'll see if something comes up. For what it's worth, gauss was also delayed (the first time there was a navigator mission was in August), but I managed through it - actually I also got some limited use out of shard cannons this time.

Are you supposed to have Hydro-Jet Cannons available to buy right from the start? Tech tree seems to suggests otherwise.
Also, the game doesn't allow me to put Scout Drone on a craft for some reason (I have the crew space available).

Which craft? You cannot put a drone on the initial craft Seamaster (SWS Capacity 0), but on regular more advanced crafts this works fine for me.

[DSeyka]

Which craft? You cannot put a drone on the initial craft Seamaster (SWS Capacity 0), but on regular more advanced crafts this works fine for me.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for pointing this out!
_{An error message or something would be nice tho.}

[murkhach@centrum.cz]

By playing the game It seems for me that  hybrid-subs are very soon replaced by late ones.
(changes are Bold)

So I suggest these TIER Ranks :
 0 :  basic
       SEAMASTER 1x Torp


 1:  flying subs 2 weapon slots
      requires :   supercavitation
        CORMORANT    2x Canon
        TRITON 

 1.33
     requires: Khimtar Box, triton 
        BARRACUDA   1xCanon 1xTorpedo
 
 1.66: 
      requires :   aquaplastic , barracuda
       POSEIDON
       MORAY     2xTorpedo


  2  hybrid subs  (3 weapon slots)
      requires :   Ion Beam Accelerators 
       DEEP ANGEL   2xCanon 1xTorpedo  200 damage capacity - it is made from plastic and should be superior to moray
       TYPHON          1xCannon
       MAKO              3xTorpedo

 2.5
     requires :   Ultra Dense
       STINGRAY   1xCanon 2xTorpedo  - suppose at his stage player is still more dependent on Torpedos
         


  3. high speed subs  (4 weapon slots)
      requires :   M.C. Lab, Ancient Clone Chamber, Ultradense
      MANTA  : 2xCannon 2x Torpedo 550 damage capacity - it is made from plastic and should be superior to stingray
      HAMMERHEAD : 2xCannon
     
  3.5
      requires :   molecular shield
      LEVIATHAN  3xxCannon 1xTorpedo
      FLOUNDER -
     
adjusted LORE for high seed subs
  - the sub is living organism and without living crews it soul died and left only empty casket
  - after experiments with M.C.   capable aquanauts we were able to clone part of their soul to that casket and connect it with  other componnets
 
Another adjusted tech dependency
  ZRBITE            -   requires any Technician
  ULTRADENSE   -   requires Naga Guard Interrogation  (naga Lord is dependent on Naga Guard)
  P.W.T               -   rqquires Tasoth Guard               
 

[psavola]

By playing the game It seems for me that  hybrid-subs are very soon replaced by late ones.
(changes are Bold)

My 5 cents. Cormorant is so weak that it is essentially useless. In the very beginning, it could be used for scouting or delaying an event. However, you will gain detection vessel soon enough, which is so slow that it is ideal to delay events (you can do "time shifting" of multiple days, even).

Barracuda must have at least two torpedo slots. It already takes at least two barracudas to be able to defend your transport against hunter-killers (and even that is not completely secure if the HK happens to be shielded). Taking the second away would be crippling. Obviously, you will want to replace these ASAP with two morays, but usually you can't get it right away due to the lack of aqua plastics for everything you need (including at least one poseidon).

For most of the game currently barracudas as enough and you don't really urgently need morays or other interceptors (though the increased fuel space and ability to catch very deep subs is a bonus) - though usually I get a manta or two and a leviathan for convenience. I guess it would be possible to try to make some adjustments but that would have huge implications. For example in your proposal you'll need at the minimum two barracudas to shoot down small subs, which seems unfair to me.

I have never found any use for hybrid subs. The increased speed is not enough to outrun even a regular hunter-killer, and the speed is not enough to catch for example large or medium subs. And they are still weak-ish and consume zrbite. But maybe I have missed something. Something needs to change if one wants them to be viable.

[murkhach@centrum.cz]

Cormorant is so weak that it is essentially useless.

I thing that this is  due to weakness of early cannon weapons

However, you will gain detection vessel soon enough, which is so slow that it is ideal to delay events (you can do "time shifting" of multiple days, even).

Interesting , I did not  use that this way ;-)

It already takes at least two barracudas to be able to defend your transport against hunter-killers (and even that is not completely secure if the HK happens to be shielded). Taking the second away would be crippling.

I expect shielded subs appear  in late stage of game (one should have better tech at that moment)
HK have limited range so you can bypass dangerous areas by using way-points
1x D.U.P and 1x basic cannon can destroy hunter
Enhanced plastic cannon can help as well 

you can't get it right away due to the lack of aqua plastics for everything you need (including at least one poseidon).

Well reducing resource consumption to
    70 aqua plastic  for Baracuda
  200 aqua plastic  for Poseidon should help

 

[psavola]

In my current campaign, I have once again been plagued by bad RNG. It took a very long time to have a chance to get navigator. I did not have any artifact site missions with the sharkmen (which would have enabled me to obtain a live Oct terrorist, which would unlock advanced MC before the freaks come and made certain other missions much easier), and now (Jan 2039) capturing a live Oct is not even possible anymore, unless I chance upon and shoot down a sharkmen battleship going on a terror mission. So likely I should do the alien dungeon first so that freaks start to appear. I also have had only one terror mission with bio-drones, which I had no other option than to abort (I guess I should have forced through to capture at least one even with heavy losses). The only other way to get bio-drone is through enhanced aquatoid/freak medic and there is no alternative path to Oct terrorist. The furthest weirdness has been that I have yet to see a single Naga temple mission, which has 50% of chance to occur after Naga society (temples are an easy mid-game way to churn a few alien implanters, for example, not that I have a dire need anymore).

EDIT: apparently you can't get sonic weapons manufacturing through those medics either, I misunderstood the dependencies.

I suppose the game is offering me a chance to try a run without offensive MC but I'm not overly enthusiastic, given that in particular psiVision with MC armor is so exceptionally powerful a tool in missions consisting of multiple levels (e.g. base attacks, jellymen tsunamis, biolabs, barges, ...).

[psavola]

As noted in the OXCE general thread, there appear to be map bugs in the ancient alien dungeon (invisible half-blocking walls):

https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=153855;topic=6586.1260;last_msg=153858

[murkhach@centrum.cz]

now (Jan 2039) capturing a live Oct is not even possible anymore, unless I chance upon and shoot down a sharkmen battleship going on a terror mission.

I suggest to change  AlieeMission rule for Artifact site  (CACHARODRONS fits really nice for this type of mission)

  - type: STR_ALIEN_ARTIFACT
    raceWeights:
      0:
        STR_AQUATOID: 20
        STR_GILLMAN: 30
        STR_CARCHARODON: 50
      6:
        STR_CARCHARODON: 100
      8:
        STR_CARCHARODON: 70
        STR_MIXED_CREW: 30
      10:
        STR_CARCHARODON: 40
        STR_MIXED_CREW: 60
      12:
        STR_CARCHARODON: 10
        STR_MIXED_CREW: 90

[DSeyka]

Just FYI, mod doesn't seem to be working with latest OXCE nightly (7.8.12)

Code: [Select]

[ERROR] Error for 'mod': Both 'STR_DOWN_TO_ABYSS' and 'STR_TLETH_ALIEN_CITY' research are marked as 'unlockFinalMission: true'

[Nord]

Just FYI, mod doesn't seem to be working with latest OXCE nightly (7.8.12)

Code: [Select]

[ERROR] Error for 'mod': Both 'STR_DOWN_TO_ABYSS' and 'STR_TLETH_ALIEN_CITY' research are marked as 'unlockFinalMission: true'

Is it not working or just give error message?
Anyway, you can fix it now by adding string

Code: [Select]

  - delete: STR_TLETH_ALIEN_CITYinto "research.rul" file, near similar "- delete" strings.

[Meridian]

This sounds suspicious, it should be only a warning... I will check.