Author Topic: MLG 180 reaction fire  (Read 4202 times)

Offline jungybrogan

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MLG 180 reaction fire
« on: March 05, 2017, 10:33:25 pm »
So apparently enemies with high reactions can do 180 degree headshots from across the map when sniped in the back.

Anyone remember if this was the case in the original X-Com, and why can't player units do the same thing?

It's really frustrating in X-Piratez when enemies with massive vision advantages or high reactions start showing up - I spend a load of time carefully setting up/scouting, and then when when I finally get the opportunity to flank/snipe/backstab someone like a ninja, they do 180s that kill or take my gals out for a month.  Sucks the fun out of combat, and has pretty much halted my play because battles are getting too tedious and tactically restrictive. It's just too much, and feels like the AI is blatantly cheating, doing something the player can't; I never noticed 180s ever being an issue in vanilla (possibly because of less stat/vision disparity beween X-COM and aliens).

Absolutely LOVE everything else about X-Piratez (been my main game for the past month), but my desire to continue has plummeted with all the WTFHAX.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 01:10:18 am by jungybrogan »

Offline redrat9595

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 01:29:28 am »
I haven't played X-Piratez but I know this is very possible in vanilla, in the original as well (there are very few differences between OpenXCOM and X-COM). I know it sounds a bit like cheating, but it is a game after all and not all mods are professionally balanced. It's very easy to just go in and edit vision distance (though I'm not sure whether vision distance plays into reactions?).

For the knife, what I would do if you're willing to put the time into it is add another firemode to the knife called "backstab" that does massive damage and only use it based on the honor system. Up to you though. It would only take a couple minutes if you look at the gun melee packaged with OpenXcom (though if it's a knife, since it already has melee, you may have to actually add a fire mode with range 2 so diagonals work).

Technically speaking though your troops are capable of turning around and firing in a very similar way to how the aliens do, it's just that players very rarely leave their troops with a lot of time units and remaining time units factor largely into reactions (which is why it's such a big deal to throw a smoke grenade down the ramp on your first turn, because aliens have a basically 100% chance of reacting to your troops walking down it).

Offline jungybrogan

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 02:20:00 am »
I always assumed player units could only react to hits/enemies from within their vision.  AFAIK I've never seen any instances of player controlled units spin a complete 180; correct me if I'm wrong.  Ie. my Mistress with something like 140 reactions and full TU, never turns around even after a string of 15 chupacabra swings to the back on hunting missions; I *always* have to turn them manually. 

Yet the AI starts to land impossible 180s when shot in the back by gals in camo, behind cover, at night, in the forest.  FFS, they even spin on you from grenades/molotovs tossed from out of their view. 

I really don't feel like outcheating with editing, or outcheesing them with even more gamey/tedious tactics to continue (camping endlessly/bombarding with projectiles from the dropzone), but these enemies are showing up regularly now, where positioning, stealth/flanking no longer matter, and it just breaks all immersion.  If only there were a simple engine flag for "no reaction checks against out-of-vision hits" - I'd check the shit out of that box all day.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 02:21:55 am by jungybrogan »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 03:00:08 am »
I always assumed player units could only react to hits/enemies from within their vision.  AFAIK I've never seen any instances of player controlled units spin a complete 180; correct me if I'm wrong.  Ie. my Mistress with something like 140 reactions and full TU, never turns around even after a string of 15 chupacabra swings to the back on hunting missions; I *always* have to turn them manually. 

That's because melee attacks do not provoke reactions. For either side.

Yet the AI starts to land impossible 180s when shot in the back by gals in camo, behind cover, at night, in the forest.  FFS, they even spin on you from grenades/molotovs tossed from out of their view.

And now we're in blatant lies sitcom territory, congrats. :P

Offline Dioxine

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2017, 03:08:47 am »
Sounds like a bug - if it's true. Any saves with instances of enemies reacting to backstab, or to missed shots from outside their FOV? Naturally they will react to hits, if they can spot you - Mercs, for example, have superior vision to most of your units.

Offline KiriKaneko

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2017, 02:26:03 pm »
Enemies will turn around and shoot you if you hit them with a molotov or a black powder bomb as it damaged them. They won't turn around if you hit them with a primed frag grenade because it doesn't blow up til your turn ends, if they survive it they will try to shoot at you but you should have time to get your person into cover, or throw 2-3 frags to make absolutely sure they die

Explosives really is just the way to go when dealing with super strong enemies. Mines in doorways you don't have enough people to watch, spotting enemies and then having a mortar user shoot mortars over buildings at them safely, the 4x shot of the quad launcher, stacking primed frag grenades on a target etc are for me the only safe way to deal with the more dangerous enemies, just make sure that if you throw a grenade the target definetly has it's back to you, if they can see you they will shoot you for it!

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2017, 02:47:52 pm »
The main reason this popped up less in vanilla, and it did, is that the sight range in vanilla is half of what it is in Piratez, and smoke is always 100% effective - that and enemies in vanilla were FAR more likely to go down in one hit.

Offline Yankes

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2017, 07:49:16 pm »
btw is possible to reduce reaction based on distance or add melee reaction. If there is problem then is possible to tinker a bit with this.

Offline legionof1

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 08:05:49 pm »
Melee attack reaction pls god no. But distance based reaction seems reasonable. Sprinting 60 yards to bean somebody with a stick unnoticed is weird. But if you do make it there by wining the reaction check you should be free to unload. Getting inside someones guard and reaction range is a real thing.

Offline jungybrogan

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2017, 12:46:30 am »
Naturally they will react to hits, if they can spot you - Mercs, for example, have superior vision to most of your units.

I'm at this point where pretty much everyone I go against: Humanists, Spartans, Guild security, Mercs, et all - all have units with superior vision, even at night.  Just kind of immersion breaking since superior night vision is supposed to be the ubers' special ability.  Like my camo'd units at night are getting shot by everyone from offscreen, on top of spinning on me when I do spot them and get them from behind, and it's just really tedious right now.  Early game being sneaky/stealthy and creeping up to people to ambush them was really fun, but now it feels like the only reliable way to win missions is to camp behind my craft and lob out its inventory.

Enemies will turn around and shoot you if you hit them with a molotov or a black powder bomb as it damaged them. They won't turn around if you hit them with a primed frag grenade because it doesn't blow up til your turn ends, if they survive it they will try to shoot at you but you should have time to get your person into cover, or throw 2-3 frags to make absolutely sure they die

I do tend to use a lot of instant explosions, because priming something and throwing it consumes most of the TU percentage.  Previously, I could use my forward scouts to lob molotovs, bombs, javelins/axes, then retreat back into cover - that's just not possible anymore. 

I'll have to give the primed nades more use, but it just feels so gamey and demoralizing to explode people and have them spin and instagib camo'd girls at night.  You'd think they panic, suffer consussions/shellshock, run off in fear, but it's like all the factions are now fielding hyperaware aimbot terminators with predator vision.

Now that the stealth tactics are out the window, it seems like I'd just be better off just armoring up as much as possible and fighting during the day.  I mean, even the civvies/gangsters spot me the moment I start using fire arrows/molotovs at night, despite my units being well outside of the lit area (visually) ... why can everyone see so faaar at night?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 12:48:10 am by jungybrogan »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 01:39:49 am »
Well it's simply not true. Most enemies you have mentioned, except Mercs, have at best equal or slightly superior vision+camo than yourself... provided you don't use any camo/enhanced NV yourself. Spartans and Humanist have no NV at all, except for rare special units; although Spartans have camo which kinda balances out your superior basic NV. Guild Security has slightly superior NV than yourself, but much inferior to even early camo/NV outfits available to you.

Offline jungybrogan

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 04:05:27 am »
Not sure what to say - I'm outfitting my scouts with camo paint right now, which is the best I have at the moment, and I'm regularly getting attacked by units from all those factions well before I can see them.  I'm getting outspotted/outsniped in every encounter with Spartans/humanists (progroms) so I have to rely on silly ship camping and door tricks for most of the mission.   I'll start collecting a bunch of combat saves once I build up the morale to play again.

Maybe it has something to do with light levels around tiles, which seem binary; there's no way to tell when units are concealed in darkness.  Sometimes I'll be standing in a pitch dark tile and concealment will work as expected, then I move over to the next seemingly unlit tile, and suddenly everyone's shooting at me (especially in dark rooms in buildings). 

Do enemies have shared vision here?  If so, perhaps all it takes is one vision/camo superior unit to give shared vision, which would make it seem like everyone sees better, adding to the frustration.  Either way, for the experience of someone's first playthrough, the vision/camo disparity at this stage of the game, combined with the frequent 180s (since I'm being forced to overextend just to see units) is really demotivating right now.

Beyond camo paint, which line of research should I pursue to make combat like the early months again?


Offline legionof1

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 11:29:12 am »
It would be nice if the color system could adequately inform the player of what counts as illuminated. Units count as being illuminated(spotted as if full day) at light level 9. But telling the difference is nigh impossible for most end users. 9 might as well be pure black unless your gamma or contrast is super high. Combine it with being behind in some aspect of vision for nearly the entire game. It is quite a frustrating experience.   

Offline jungybrogan

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2017, 03:22:28 pm »
Thanks for the explanation.  The vision aspect is really frustrating, since I'm constantly reloading just to figure out which magic tiles won't get me sniped from across the map (especially if I start using fire/torches to spot things) - the inconsistency ruins a lot of the immersion.  Perhaps there's a solution so light level thresholds correlate with the visuals, or at the very least, a way to display if a tile is illuminated?

I get how gals are supposed to start low-tech with crappy weapons, have dark age gear, etc, (and I'm completely fine with being outgunned), but the fluff indicates they're supposed to be these uber mutants superior to purebloods, whose lauded trait is enhanced vision.  Yet when enemies either hide better, or see better, their defining ability effectively amounts to jack. 

Offline legionof1

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Re: MLG 180 reaction fire
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 05:06:48 pm »
I deeply wish there was a way to be certain about light. At present there is nothing but system experience since absolute light level is not exposed to the player. The coloring system deals with low gamma states quite poorly. Night vision mode was added specifically so the player could see AT ALL at night. 

The gals base NV is pretty good at 16 compared to ungeared units 8-10. The issue is 1 square of deficit can get gals killed. And you never achieve complete parity in all aspects of vision. No outfit has camo, 25 NV, and 60% thermal. You get at best 2 outa 3. And then only on a limited number of outfits. Hard corners and hatches are the only fully reliable/predictable defense to getting shot. And then only because AI is derpy as all fuck and sub 60 degree cone of vision.