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Author Topic: Shotgun balance  (Read 7656 times)

Offline KateMicucci

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2016, 08:27:38 pm »
Shotguns should stay within their role as a weapon that does high damage that's heavily reduced by armor. If we were trying to be internally consistent within the game, we would position slugs between musket balls and the heavy slugthrower, which are both also use heavy, relatively low velocity bullets. The musket as a 40 damage +40% enemy armor weapon is much better than it was as a 29 damage weapon. Likewise, if the CAWs slug did something like 65 damage and enemy armor +20% (just throwing thise numbers out- haven't done the math) it would be more interesting and useful than a flat 50 damage slug.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2016, 09:53:59 pm »
I like the idea of slugs doing more stun damage. Together with a 50-150% damage range, I'd certainly consider using them. Particularly vs enemies that don't bleed but are worth more when captured alive. Zombies for example.

Offline KateMicucci

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2016, 02:28:39 am »
Curious- does anybody use sniper guns? Because I never do.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2016, 02:50:40 am »
It depends on playstyle. I used the hunting rifle a lot at the beginning for snapshots reactions, but now it's far superior to train reactions in melee. And although having a weapon that can react well is nice, the hunting rifle is a bit underpowered when you take out its one advantage of training reactions.

As for other ones, usually once I get them, 1-2 Kustom Snipin' Guns make it on my lineup, but it's hard for them to compete with HMGs really. They get screwed by the RNG (small drift causing them to hit terrain, small roll meaning no damage is done) and by the wonky projectile paths (where the game lets you fire even though you can't hit). Both of these are compensated for by the HMG (and later Vulcan) and their large number of shots. You can get ~40-50% to hit with those, and with so many shots, that's more hits and more damage than the snipers can do, while also being able to blow out intervening terrain (you can even force fire through light cover pretty reliably). So my snipers get replaced by HMGs or Vulcans pretty quickly.

What snipers would need is a return for all of them to being able to react (real and/or movie snipers will get you within seconds of you peaking your head out of cover), maybe with a slightly worse damage bonus on snap shots than aimed shots (but I don't think that distinction is possible). In fact, I'd actually give snipers a large bonus accuracy for kneeling, to represent that you need to setup if you want to hit something. Then the snapshot would become useful again, and it doesn't really matter for the aimed shot since that one is usually well above 100% any ways and there's no difference between 100% and 160%.

Offline legionof1

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 04:34:55 am »
I do use a few snipers but my usage has dropped quite a bit over the last several patches. Early game is most effectively played as night ops with a melee capture focus. This leads to reduced early firing stat gains which makes the transition to high %TU snipers less efficient. Also snipers are support gals which dont work well on the low capacity early game craft.

Snipers are also much less "safe" in the present state of the game. 2 major enemy groups(mercs and reticulans) have superior thermal vision to all but one outfit the player can use. Similar thermal vision deficits happen vs a number of units in other factions. So defending sniper positions with good fields of fire is problematic during the day. At night snipers themselves are safer but your scouts are in much greater danger because of the 16-25 sight range limitation.

The game hasn't changed from "if it's spotted it must die this turn before it fights back" state. IF anything that mentality is pushed even harder by the night centric changes. Standing up and trading fire on a daytime battlefield is a losing proposition for the player against anything more dangerous then a freighter. 

The only 100% reliable defense is not being seen. Since smoke is unreliable, only hard cover and night ops are left. Because of this i have been playing much more CQC assault with melee and Heavy shortrange automatics like the boarding gun.   


Offline khade

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2016, 06:18:54 am »
I've noticed that with enough zombie maps, your shooting quickly becomes decent, if only because getting in melee with them is a really bad idea.  I've not played much with snipers, too many distractions and not good enough at the game to get anywhere before the next major patch shows up, but I've not had much trouble getting good shooters, even with a sneaky melee focused style.

Offline legionof1

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2016, 07:25:51 am »
You do make a good point khade, but sufficient zombies at the necessary timing is by no means assured. After you have dojo/spa established only bravery reactions and Psi strength are barriers to gal usage. Only the first 8-10 gals(and replacements for loses) are forced into selfmade roles.   

Offline Eddie

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2016, 03:35:17 pm »
Accuracy you can train with easy night missions and rubber bullet shotguns. Compared to melee capture ops, you are not as fast because you deal damage slower, but you get less injuries.

Offline KateMicucci

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 05:00:27 pm »
I've noticed that with enough zombie maps, your shooting quickly becomes decent, if only because getting in melee with them is a really bad idea.  I've not played much with snipers, too many distractions and not good enough at the game to get anywhere before the next major patch shows up, but I've not had much trouble getting good shooters, even with a sneaky melee focused style.
I mean sniper rifles specifically, the ones that use a .01^2 skill formula. I use plenty of dedicated ranged gals with high shooting, but its almost always better to have them "snipe" with something like a rocket launcher or a big laser.

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2016, 04:00:55 am »
Yeah, I have 2 people who normally get sniper rifles due to request and I am generally displeased with their performance - sure the accuracy is nice, but literally anything above 130% stops having any affect on deviation so it's kinda pointless.  And, as others have said - an HMG will always do more damage at any range given unless you're extremely unlucky, and when you're using someone with FA of 120+, you will be almost as likely to land a single shot from either.   

I feel like, of all the projectile weapons, snipers need to have guaranteed damage.  Either by changing them to a 50 to 150% damage roll (please don't) or by making their bonus damage always hit (and ignore / directly damage armor) separate from their standard damage.

Offline Bloax

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2016, 06:43:42 am »
Sniper rifle quality should probably be distinguished by higher FA requirements for performance (i.e. higher tiers of sniper rifles requiring more FA for the same accuracy) alongside reliable devastation, yes.

The problem is not making this something so good so as to make it almost mandatory to have on your roster, since a rather reliable "kill" feature from a sniper squad seems like something most would want to erase their frontline mistakes.

Offline khade

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2016, 06:49:49 am »
What if the sniper didn't get marked or marked as well, after shooting something?  Like they know something over there shot one of their people, but they only have a vague 'somewhere in this general area' idea of where to grenade, carpet bomb, or rush, and certainly not enough for voodoo, without some searching at least.

The size of the general area they think the sniper is in could shrink with intelligence, really dumb enemies might think the bullets are coming from everywhere, while extremely smart ones might be able to narrow it down to 5 square tiles.

Offline legionof1

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2016, 09:11:59 am »
A modifier to intelligence rating would be interesting.  Unfortunately pointless with the present design of vision. Day time vision range is pretty much the entire map most of the time. IF a sniper can shoot something most of the time it can see them back.

Night vision is so short that your scouts are already in Shotgun/Hvy automatic/melee sprint range so sniper contribution is limited by comparison to those types of weapons high raw firepower. 

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: Shotgun balance
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2016, 02:44:40 pm »
Unfortunately, that's not how intelligence works at all.  Doesn't really matter if it's day or night.  If you land an attack they know where you are.  If you made it so that sniper rifles don't update the 'turnssinceseen' it would make them useful for nighttime missions *especially* against any Voodoo wielding foes.  But it would be a very niche use.