Author Topic: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?  (Read 35957 times)

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2016, 07:28:51 pm »
Easy Arthanor.  ;)

First of all, I don't think there'll be any changes like this anyway, as I have a feeling Dioxine sees things you way. And that's fine with me.

That said, I wasn't saying: Prevent players from researching x, my idea was just to make research more expensive in a way that forced to specialize (or become a jack of all trades that can use everything, but doesn't have access to the higher tier stuff).

The idea of me advocating keeping players from researching something is a little silly in the context of what this thread is about - an overconvoluted techweb that has many unneccessary and illogical cross-connections currently preventing me from progressing.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2016, 08:49:26 pm »
Oh, I agree that the current philosophy is unlikely to change. I just respond badly to suggestion that branching and streaming are superior. That's really not how I see things working in science. And you're still saying "doesn't have access to higher tier stuff". That's what I'm disagreeing with, why would your scientists suddenly be unable to progress? Because they once worked on bows? That makes no sense. If you want it all, you just have to spend the time to get it all. Given a set number of science effort, at a given time you'll either have a lot of one thing, or a little of many things, and it balances itself. Then if you want to spend more effort (keep the game going longer to get everything) or start specializing (because you found a branch you really like), nothing should be preventing you from doing it.

Research is quite expensive already, but maybe some gating tech for different styles could work, with a good first "prize" and text on what the potential of such a branch is. Kind of like the Primitive Weapons tech does for bows et al. That would be nice.

And I disagree about illogical cross-connections, although I agree that being completely prevented from progressing shouldn't be possible.

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2016, 09:26:50 pm »
Dude, would you kindly stop  trying to twist my words around?  :P

In the context I used it "don't have access to higher tier stuff" merely means you'll only have (realistically) the time do do either A++ or B++ or C++ or ABC (without the pluses), with both A, B, C and the pluses representing costly research projects. Powergamers will inevitably find ways around this, but who cares? Like you, I wouldn't really like excessive gating.
Some mutually exclusive branching would be nice (in the sense of something like siding with one of the factions, for example), but other than that, cost should be the only delimiter.

Also, as of now, tech isn't really expensive.
I'm on my first run with the mod and by no means an expert X-Com player. I only have 16 Brainers. Still, I've not run into an really excessively expensive tech so far. And, with few exceptions far and in between, I haven't researched anything of note in at least half a year now.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2016, 12:28:34 am »
I'm not trying! You just write in such a way that I interpret this way. :P

I did say that given a set amount of effort, you'll get either a lot of one thing or a little of many things, so I agree with you on the "A++ or B++ or C++ or AB+ or ABC, etc.".

And I also agree with
And, with few exceptions far and in between, I haven't researched anything of note in at least half a year now.

There are stretches where you wonder why your brainers are spending time doing what they did, because it's not worth it from the results you get. That is one of my issues with Piratez, but unfortunately the tech tree is such a monster that it's hard to address.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2016, 04:07:16 am »
Expensive tech would only force player to tons and tons of missions before ANYTHING gets unlocked. Still he would research everything, since there are no time limits.

Making lots of tech unmandatory would lead to geometrically-expanding list of unresearched (and never-to-be-researched) topics.

Sure multiple paths will be nice, they're planned, but fuck son, do you think it's that easy? I'm alone on this job :)

I get that most games of this kind have the kind of tech tree you're proposing, rezaf, but this is IMO one more reason to do it in a different way (more akin to civ games).

Offline nrafield

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2016, 04:08:18 am »
I mean, metagaming from the original games aside (which indeed compounds the problem), why would you want to capture the Chryssalid for instance? So you can interrogate it about its predilection for mass rape while it snaps its claws at you? I don't doubt that there will be people who capture to satisfy their curiosity, but from a design perspective it makes no sense to rely entirely on players having an unprovoked inquisitive impulse in order for them to proceed with key techs.

It's possible that you could later utilize the knowledge about their fast metabolism and bilology to create a magical medkit that allows you to restore more health to your troops when healing them, possibly at the cost of other consequences. Or you could just wear their exterior as a hat to strike fear into your enemies, in fact that's already in the mod

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2016, 04:50:50 pm »
Expensive tech would only force player to tons and tons of missions before ANYTHING gets unlocked. Still he would research everything, since there are no time limits.

It all depends on implementation. As it is now, there's already a TON of often very weird sets of requirements, and the why and when is FAR from intuitive.
For example, already in the dead phase of the game I still find myself stuck in, one of the things I researched was the Rail Driver. I had one lying around in my stores for years, but because the intereconnected techweb wills it, my gals were unable to take it apart to tell what it was, how to use it, how to build ammo for it etc.
If the MAIN techs (A, B and C from my example) were easily accessible with requirements you almost cannot miss, but advanced techs would require a live captured high-ranked enemy, this alone would naturally push you into one path or the other depending on which enemies the RNG spits out in your game.
Have a lot of academy presence? Chances are you'll concentrate on energy weapons, as the best techs require academy provosts.
Many mercenaries? Heavy Guns will be your thing. And so on and so forth, every "faction" would provide access towards perfectioning research in a range of weaponry. But none of this perfercionist research would be mandatory.
In a game with balanced enemy presence, you might find yourself approaching the endgame without having explored either branch in-depth.
Thoroughness would bring it's rewards - many fancy toys to play around with - but none of it would be strictly neccessary, so if the chance to capture high ranking individuals never presents itself - no biggie, none of that stuff is strictly neccessary, not having any of it won't stop your game in it's tracks.
If you still want to linger around obsessively capturing every piece of tech, sure, just don't research the gateway tech and wait for the RNG to bring in another faction.

Does this really sound so bad?

Making lots of tech unmandatory would lead to geometrically-expanding list of unresearched (and never-to-be-researched) topics.

You're contradicting yourself. First you write: If techs were made expensive, players would STILL research everything no matter how long it takes. Because if players are able to, they'll research EVERYTHING.
But then you write: If not everything is strictly mandatory, players will leave stuff unresearched anyway. Because if players are able to, they'll skip EVERYTHING.
Now what?
I think you're right on both accounts, but for different kinds of players.

The mod as it is now FORCES all players to research most everything in each and every game.
And screw those whom the RNG gods don't bless and who find themselves unable to research some of the exotic thingies. (i.e., me in this game).

Sure multiple paths will be nice, they're planned, but fuck son, do you think it's that easy? I'm alone on this job :)

Did anybody write anything that was proposed has to be finished next week?
If none of it ever makes it into PirateZ, so be it - we're merely having a discussion of things that MAY be worth looking into.
And you're the one making the calls. :)

I get that most games of this kind have the kind of tech tree you're proposing, rezaf, but this is IMO one more reason to do it in a different way (more akin to civ games).

Yah, I realize that. I can only repeat myself, though - I think PirateZ has far too much content in it to force players into researching EVERY LAST BIT OF IT in each and every game.
It also harms replayability, imo.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2016, 05:29:02 pm »
You're contradicting yourself. First you write: If techs were made expensive, players would STILL research everything no matter how long it takes. Because if players are able to, they'll research EVERYTHING.

No, that's not what I meant. Yes you will probably research everything IN THE END, but in the meantime, the to-do list would become absurdly long. In the previous statement I merely wrote that research time is absolutely irrelevant tideness-wise, it only makes the game longer.

Basically what you want from me is to completely abandon my model of tech tree and replace it with yours. I really don't care about intuitiveness of research tree, because my goal is exactly opposite. Items with weirdest sets of topics aren't usually mandatory, or only unlock some advanced features. The research tree is supposed to be puzzle; your improvements would completely overturn it.

Does it harm replayability? Depends on the player. Such a puzzle tech tree actually makes the Only True Way of research quite impossible, which does add to replayability. Sure, tech cockblocks are annoying, but on the other hand, 'this shit is useless' moments aren't as prevalent, since it is hard to early research something that is still great far into mid- or even endgame.

That being said, I'm not saying my model is better. It might well be worse. My goal is to do it differently than the well-treaded and well-explored paths you propose. Do you think it's a failed experiment? Well, it's your right.

As for your gripe of being hated by the RNG gods. From a certain point of view, it's a blessing in disguise; forces you to explore different techs you'd never have researched. Also, more ways to get to gateways tech will be added with new content. This is the solution I envision here: redundancy. The redundancy is already well visible by the multitude of sources you can get a lot of entry tech from.

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2016, 06:26:31 pm »
No, that's not what I meant. Yes you will probably research everything IN THE END, but in the meantime, the to-do list would become absurdly long. In the previous statement I merely wrote that research time is absolutely irrelevant tideness-wise, it only makes the game longer.

Ah, ok then, my bad. I will say that I had an absurdly long research list anyhow in the current model and that, again, it'd depend on the implementation, but you made your point.

Basically what you want from me is to completely abandon my model of tech tree and replace it with yours. I really don't care about intuitiveness of research tree, because my goal is exactly opposite. Items with weirdest sets of topics aren't usually mandatory, or only unlock some advanced features. The research tree is supposed to be puzzle; your improvements would completely overturn it.

"My tech tree" is just ideas, and iseas are cheap. Sorry to say, but "your tech tree" (the one currently in the game) doesn't appear to have any idea behind it and looks as if randomly generated.
I asked question about the feasibility of some requirements earlier and they remained unanswered. However., when you say this...

That being said, I'm not saying my model is better. It might well be worse. My goal is to do it differently than the well-treaded and well-explored paths you propose. Do you think it's a failed experiment? Well, it's your right.

... the argument of course ends immediately. After all, what can you say if somebody argues: "But ... but ... but ... I WANT things to be a disjointed incoherent mess!"?  :P
However, as I also wrote earlier, your mod, your call. In the end, I presume you wouldn't write me (or anyone else) a C&D letter if I tried to make a mod with a different tech progression.

Does it harm replayability? Depends on the player. Such a puzzle tech tree actually makes the Only True Way of research quite impossible, which does add to replayability.

You wrote earlier that, to finish the game, you'll have to research EVERYTHING that can even in the vaguest kind be considered basic. If not even things like Chateau De La Mort are skippable, I'm inclined to take your word for it. Which also means, once I have finished the mod, I have seen everything it has to offer on that front.

Sure, tech cockblocks are annoying, but on the other hand, 'this shit is useless' moments aren't as prevalent, since it is hard to early research something that is still great far into mid- or even endgame.

I can assure you I had many, many 'this shit is useless' moments while playing PirateZ. At least 80% of the weapons and guns aren't worth researching/having/using/buying/whatever.
Some of those are worth a chuckle or trying them out just for fun, or might be worth using in exotic situations that might never present themselves, but many are not even that.
I do like the variety and having tons of stuff to research, but ... as I wrote, it's a disjointed mess, which can be frustrating at times.

As for your gripe of being hated by the RNG gods. From a certain point of view, it's a blessing in disguise; forces you to explore different techs you'd never have researched.

I'm actually one of the kind of players who will research anything they can anyhow, given the chance. I had trouble with live captures, but other than that, I even often delayed projects that looked important to finish up some nooks and crannies. But then - it's the topic of this thread - I ran out of stuff to research. There's no things I could pursue.
Recently, the Humanists have started to make an appearance and there was a little bit of new research, but nothing of note.
I'm hated by the RNG gods because the only thing that could bring progress to my game was a pogrom with a Ghoul. And I haven't had a pogrome in 2 months, they have become RARE.
And if they occur, more often than not it's the Star Gods. It's cool, I have some of them in my prison, yay. But I can't progress in the game because I don't have a Ghoul.
I have enough money in the bank to buy a Church Cardinal, but I have a bunch of those in my prison, too. All I'd need is a Ghoul. MY KINGDOM FOR A GHOUL!

Offline khade

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2016, 08:42:33 am »
Did you get the research topic "mutant self defense force"?

That cuts down heavily on pogroms, I don't think it can completely stop them.  It's a post "school graduation" tech, I don't know if you are past that or if the RNG does seriously hate you.

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2016, 10:41:12 am »
No, I'm still pre school graduation.

As I elaborated before, I managed to miss "Animal Poison", so the only way to get the entire research branch neccessary to get School Graduation (via Poisons & Acids I think it's called) is interrogating a live ghoul. And these are incredibly rare.

Btw., I wonder why Megascorpion Hunts stop appearing, but you still get the worthless Warehouse Wars, Temple Raids and Ratmen Rodeo - not to mention the INCREDIBLY time consuming with almost nothing to show for it Mansion Invasions.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2016, 02:28:35 pm »
OK. It's really easy to deride my work, so feel free to do it some more :) But there's nothing more I have to say. Have a good day.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2016, 05:15:46 pm »
Mansions give gems, which are quite valuable. Over time, as you get better gals, better armors and more tools, mansion missions also become quite a bit less work.

Also, at this point, you're in a research dead end that wasn't foreseen or planned for. Quit bitching and fix it (add a live megascorpion to your alien containment and consider that it was a bug that got you where you are). Your game is pretty much broken otherwise as the odds of getting the ghoul you need are rrally small.

Keeping the game going as is and complaining about it repeatedly is pointless (and annoying). Your point has been made way back when Dioxine realized it was possible for players to miss animal poison the way you did. I'm fairly certain there will be alternative ways in a future release to account for that and if not, it's because Dioxine decided not to add them while being aware of your position, so it is unlikely to change from more complaining.

Offline rezaf

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2016, 12:27:53 am »
OK. It's really easy to deride my work, so feel free to do it some more :) But there's nothing more I have to say. Have a good day.

Fair enough. Thanks for bothering to tune in in the first place, and have a good time yourself.  :)

Also, at this point, you're in a research dead end that wasn't foreseen or planned for. Quit bitching and fix it (add a live megascorpion to your alien containment and consider that it was a bug that got you where you are). Your game is pretty much broken otherwise as the odds of getting the ghoul you need are rrally small.

Lol, I even scanned through the savegame with Notepad++ to see what tech I was missing, why didn't it occur to me to simply edit it, being in plain text and all.
Too used to savegames being hexadecimal without the ability to just insert and remove stuff at my leisure. Since you gave me this suggestion, I'll assume there's no anti-cheating mechanic in place (like a checksum or something) - so thanks for pointing out the obvious, I'll do just that.

Keeping the game going as is and complaining about it repeatedly is pointless (and annoying). Your point has been made way back when Dioxine realized it was possible for players to miss animal poison the way you did. I'm fairly certain there will be alternative ways in a future release to account for that and if not, it's because Dioxine decided not to add them while being aware of your position, so it is unlikely to change from more complaining.

I may have something more to say, but as for this particular topic, I'll concede you are probably spot-on. You just should've prodded me into cheating earlier.  ;)
I'll let the thread rest now, thanks for your assistance too.


Offline Arthanor

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Re: So ... I ran out of stuff to research. What now?
« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2016, 12:44:05 am »
Well, I should apologize for my previous tone. Thanks for taking it so well. Although Dioxine needs no help to defend himself, it felt wrong to see the repetition. I've gotta admit it never occurred to me that it didn't occur to you to cheat ;P I'm glad my rant gave you the solution in the end ;)