Author Topic: [WIP] [Suggestion] Solar's wishlist  (Read 73032 times)

Offline Meridian

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2016, 09:11:55 am »
1. new flag on craft to decide whether to take average or max stat (if multiple pilots)

I just did that and realized that it is stupid during testing.
If you need for example 2 pilots... one of them has max stats and second has min stats... the max stats of the first pilot would be used and second pilot would make no difference. That defies the purpose of requiring a second pilot.
So, I will revert the change and use average stats as per now.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2016, 10:06:10 am »
Good enough for me. So far implementation seems succesful.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2016, 07:31:15 pm »
2. ability (and necessity!) to choose pilots... except for case, when selected crew size is equal to amount of required pilots (all will be selected automatically... hopefully useful for interceptors)

Looks OK?

Code: [Select]
      STR_ADD_PILOT: "Add a pilot"
      STR_REMOVE_ALL_PILOTS: "Remove all pilots"
      STR_SELECT_PILOT: "SELECT A PILOT"

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2016, 07:59:46 pm »
Very cool! Will compile again today or Friday to try!

Offline Stoddard

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2016, 04:13:41 am »
I just did that and realized that it is stupid during testing.
If you need for example 2 pilots... one of them has max stats and second has min stats... the max stats of the first pilot would be used and second pilot would make no difference. That defies the purpose of requiring a second pilot.
So, I will revert the change and use average stats as per now.

As i first read the topic I thought there's no need for averaging at all - highest piloting-related gal supplies the approach-dodge related skills, the other is the gunner, so god help her. Same if there's more than two slots, only it would  be necessary to split them by type - how many pilots, how many gunners, maybe average piloting among the pilots, split guns and their chance to hit among the gunners. Or just average too for the first step. Slot assignment is automatic in order of bravery. Simple, eh? And no need for any bridge UI.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2016, 09:40:45 am »
If we start dividing them into pilots and gunners, why not also add navigators, technicians and maître de cabin? ;) And of course one pilot must be the captain and the other one "number 1".

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2016, 09:50:27 am »
If we start dividing them into pilots and gunners, why not also add navigators, technicians and maître de cabin? ;) And of course one pilot must be the captain and the other one "number 1".

Because it's kind of silly to have the ace pilot's terrible accuracy mess with the ace gunner's dead on aim, or vice versa in terms of piloting, and because shooting and piloting are the two skills actually being tested/utilized by the game.

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2016, 10:04:25 am »
My 2 cents; personally i won't add more personnel categories, otherwise the game would become anothe game, also being more complex. Pilots are fine as now, these are featured also in ufo: alien invasion so it's nice to have that feature in common :)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2016, 11:32:34 am »
Because it's kind of silly to have the ace pilot's terrible accuracy mess with the ace gunner's dead on aim, or vice versa in terms of piloting, and because shooting and piloting are the two skills actually being tested/utilized by the game.

Depends how the craft is controlled. What you say is true for a craft that has separate turrets, but we don't have such crafts. In a 2-seater, like attack helicopter, cooperation between pilot and gunner is important; gunner's terrible accuracy does mess with ace pilot's aim, since the gunner can't take full advantage of pilot's actions and keeps fucking up engagements.
If a craft is designed to take full advantage of ace's stats, it's one-seater.
Also, regarding the 'take best stats' system, consider this: if we have a 2 seater, and one guy is a perfect pilot and the other perfect gunner, all is fine. However, it comes apart when you simply put there a single ace (with all stats maxed) and the other guy serves just to fill the quota. No; the system of average stats is better, since it doesn't create silly situations like these. You can have both 'ace' one-seaters and lumbering multi-seaters, which require multiple aces to get similar levels of performance. All is good, since pilots-wise this favors smaller craft over big, usually more powerful, craft.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2016, 11:40:02 am »
Depends how the craft is controlled. What you say is true for a craft that has separate turrets, but we don't have such crafts. In a 2-seater, like attack helicopter, cooperation between pilot and gunner is important; gunner's terrible accuracy does mess with ace pilot's aim,

Wait what?

Also, the pilot's accuracy should be utterly irrelevant if you have devoted gunners concerned exclusively with the weapon systems. Sure, communication is important, but I don't think this is accurately modeled by the pilot's crappy aim working to the detriment of the gunner's when he has absolutely nothing to do with aiming or firing the weapons.

Averages within roles? Sure.

Averages across roles? Ridiculous.

Should roles exist to model important, fundamental points of delineation? I'd say so. When you have larger ships, you're going to have that kind of delineation. You're more likely to need multiple gunners than you are multiple pilots.

Also AI modules (as in Slave AIs custom purposed for operating the craft and its weapon systems) for piloting/gunning should be a thing.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 11:46:57 am by Surrealistik »

Offline Meridian

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2016, 11:43:04 am »
So tomorrow I will be sitting in a car, train, another train, tram, bus, plane, train and a bus for about 15 hours...
... which two of the following would you want next?

Code: [Select]
- Terrain destruction by melee
- Environmental effects
- Starting conditions by terrain ... except for allowedCraft, since terrain is unknown at take-off time
- Definable types of Alien Containment
- Alternate vision modes (simple heat and psi vision)

Also, can you tell me more about how should the environmental effects work?
- is it just plain hp damage per turn? or...
- is it definable type of damage? e.g. 50 plasma?
- do armors and resistances count?
- does it apply to civilians and aliens too?
- does it create fatal wounds?
- etc.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2016, 12:25:15 pm »
So tomorrow I will be sitting in a car, train, another train, tram, bus, plane, train and a bus for about 15 hours...
... which two of the following would you want next?

Code: [Select]
- Terrain destruction by melee
- Environmental effects
- Starting conditions by terrain ... except for allowedCraft, since terrain is unknown at take-off time
- Definable types of Alien Containment
- Alternate vision modes (simple heat and psi vision)

Also, can you tell me more about how should the environmental effects work?
- is it just plain hp damage per turn? or...
- is it definable type of damage? e.g. 50 plasma?
- do armors and resistances count?
- does it apply to civilians and aliens too?
- does it create fatal wounds?
- etc.

Terrain destruction by melee looks like an important thing, so we can do away with magic hammers.
But if we're talking about enviro damage, maybe it's better to do 'starting conditions by terrain'.

Second would be taking a stab at enviro effects, not sure what to say. It has to be done well (even by small steps) or not done at all. What do we need:
- Chance to apply damage per turn;
- a 'Weapon' which applies damage (having it as a weapon solves many, many problems IMO, allowing for full definition of everything and keeping crashes at bay, since weapon engine is working). This weapon can be any battletype 1, and auto-hits (yes, I don't have anything against explosions centered on units, if a modder wishes so). Using weapon engine solves most of our problems, as things like armor efficiency and damage type can be defined.
- Hit location (side and bodypart) needs to be rolled for randomly, unless explosive damage
- Toggle who is affected. 0-all (default), 1-player only, 2-player+civvies, 3-player+enemies

Wait what?
Also, the pilot's accuracy should be utterly irrelevant if you have devoted gunners concerned exclusively with the weapon systems.

Depends how abstract is the accuracy stat (very abstract in this case). If aiming involves not only aiming itself, but also pointing the nose of the craft towards enemy's ass and keeping it that way, crappy pilot WILL interfere with gunning efficiency. This would only be untrue for multiple, independent weapon systems. Crafts in this game do not generally seem to be like that.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2016, 12:30:08 pm »
I have doubts about this:

- Hit location (side and bodypart) needs to be rolled for randomly, unless explosive damage

Which location would be hit in case of high temperature? Or toxic gas?
I think this should be definable too.

Also Meridian, I'd be interested in the Alien Containment types. But as a "number three", whenever you get to it.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2016, 12:35:53 pm »
Depends how abstract is the accuracy stat (very abstract in this case). If aiming involves not only aiming itself, but also pointing the nose of the craft towards enemy's ass and keeping it that way, crappy pilot WILL interfere with gunning efficiency. This would only be untrue for multiple, independent weapon systems. Crafts in this game do not generally seem to be like that.

Proper and effective orientation of the craft is more the purview of actual piloting though; if you would include that functionality as a component of firing accuracy it seems like a bit of a stretch. Further, even if we assume that's true, for those ships with say 3+ crew slots (in excess of a pilot or pilot + co-pilot/gunner), we're definitely getting into independent rather than fixed weapon systems; that's like B17 territory.


Offline Meridian

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Re: Solar's wishlist
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2016, 12:41:59 pm »
Terrain destruction by melee looks like an important thing, so we can do away with magic hammers.
But if we're talking about enviro damage, maybe it's better to do 'starting conditions by terrain'.

Second would be taking a stab at enviro effects, not sure what to say. It has to be done well (even by small steps) or not done at all. What do we need:
- Chance to apply damage per turn;
- a 'Weapon' which applies damage (having it as a weapon solves many, many problems IMO, allowing for full definition of everything and keeping crashes at bay, since weapon engine is working). This weapon can be any battletype 1, and auto-hits (yes, I don't have anything against explosions centered on units, if a modder wishes so). Using weapon engine solves most of our problems, as things like armor efficiency and damage type can be defined.
- Hit location (side and bodypart) needs to be rolled for randomly, unless explosive damage
- Toggle who is affected. 0-all (default), 1-player only, 2-player+civvies, 3-player+enemies

Not sure if I will be able to prescribe the hit location... the rest looks doable.

Last question:
- should this weapon actually create a projectile with animation and sound effects?
- or should I skip that and just do the damage? (in this case I will have more control over the hit location... and probably easier job with "hidden movement" overlay... and it will be instantaneous... waiting a minute until all 80 deep ones and lobstermen get hit may be a little annoying)