Author Topic: Weapon Discussion Thread  (Read 63146 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #105 on: August 26, 2016, 06:17:31 am »
Just don't forget that it isn't just any Gaussian distro we're discussing. It's flatline vs. sum of 2 dice rolls. The latter gives barely ca. 2% chance of rolling under or equal 20% damage (negligible damage, either 0 or at least no Fatal Wounds, for 30-40 weapons' power, against unarmored target). This is far lower than even the traditional 5-10% 'something went wrong' chance used in many systems, like Fallout or Warhammer Role Play.
Balancing of armors so they're neither worthless nor overpowered, by the rule of thumb, makes an armor semi-safe if it stops around 80% hits. Against a weapon with 50 power, that requires 80 armor (xcom), 65 armor (tftd) or 67 armor (gaussian 2dice). The range where armor is semi-immune but penetrable clearly expands, which is a good thing. However, the range between half-resistant and semi-immune contracts, which is a worse thing, since in a semi-immune armor, the penetrating damage would be laughable anyway, unless we get into high-end weapon territory.
Medical data alone is not enough to cover all this, since we're discussing armor as well.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:23:04 am by Dioxine »

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #106 on: August 26, 2016, 07:20:42 pm »

@Helmethair: you're conveniently forgetting that plasma cutters have a range counted in centimetres at best. The issue of plasma WEAPON overpenetration would largely depend on how it manages to deliver plasma to the target without discharging it in all directions just off the barrel's end.


I forgot? No, can't say that I did. You are making an assumption. I didn't mention it and used an application example without going into the absolute minutiae of things like conduction path, gas composition, voltage, amperage, transistor type, arc start method, and generation design. Why? because that would be boring, and you wouldn't understand.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2016, 08:49:18 pm »
Just don't forget that it isn't just any Gaussian distro we're discussing. It's flatline vs. sum of 2 dice rolls. The latter gives barely ca. 2% chance of rolling under or equal 20% damage (negligible damage, either 0 or at least no Fatal Wounds, for 30-40 weapons' power, against unarmored target). This is far lower than even the traditional 5-10% 'something went wrong' chance used in many systems, like Fallout or Warhammer Role Play.
Balancing of armors so they're neither worthless nor overpowered, by the rule of thumb, makes an armor semi-safe if it stops around 80% hits. Against a weapon with 50 power, that requires 80 armor (xcom), 65 armor (tftd) or 67 armor (gaussian 2dice). The range where armor is semi-immune but penetrable clearly expands, which is a good thing. However, the range between half-resistant and semi-immune contracts, which is a worse thing, since in a semi-immune armor, the penetrating damage would be laughable anyway, unless we get into high-end weapon territory.
Medical data alone is not enough to cover all this, since we're discussing armor as well.

Medical data to determine the actual outcome of getting shot by a gun with severity measured by total recovery time is a pretty good place to start.

Armour is pretty much impossible to include if we're trying to come to conclusions based off data, because the only armour we have data for is pretty much tactical vests/tactical armour; power armour? Forget it. Projectile types like plasma also are impossible to get data for. Ultimately we really have only ballistic and cutting/stabbing injuries to work with.


Speaking of which, I am finding it immensely difficult to find good info in terms of sample size and scope about total recovery times that's not behind some kind of paywall.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2016, 11:45:11 pm »
Do you have a library card? If you live in the U.S. it is trivial. Unless it is a vanity pay press... then all bets are off.

Ship me a nicely formatted list of every title, author and edition of works you want that is behind a pay wall. Make sure you have all of the identifiers I would need... sound same authors and titles can be a bitch.

Regards,

-HH

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #109 on: August 26, 2016, 11:54:59 pm »
Haha, I'm definitely not going to go down to a reference/academic library to do research for this.

I'll look into compiling that list though.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2016, 06:43:04 am »
Explosive Satchel should have enough explosive power to effectively breach a UFO hull (would be especially nice if the explosion was more concentrated than such a blast would otherwise normally be). This thing is way too large and heavy for its power and utility.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2016, 08:12:21 am »
Explosive Satchel should have enough explosive power to effectively breach a UFO hull (would be especially nice if the explosion was more concentrated than such a blast would otherwise normally be). This thing is way too large and heavy for its power and utility.

There is a nuclear satchel later that has this power.  You have Fusion Torches from almost the start for Breaching so there is no need for the original satchel to breach.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2016, 08:17:07 am »
There is a nuclear satchel later that has this power.  You have Fusion Torches from almost the start for Breaching so there is no need for the original satchel to breach.

Either way this thing is pretty useless. Reducing its weight and/or size would be a good alternative if the power cannot be increased to that extent.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2016, 03:02:06 pm »
Yeah, agreed that the thing is probably no good. I'm not using it myself. Explosives that can't really be thrown seem to be of not much use in this game. It has always been an experimental item, to check if such a concept is OP or completely worthless.

I forgot? No, can't say that I did. You are making an assumption. I didn't mention it and used an application example without going into the absolute minutiae of things like conduction path, gas composition, voltage, amperage, transistor type, arc start method, and generation design. Why? because that would be boring, and you wouldn't understand.

WTF are you blabbering about? I didn't suggest that you literally forgot, because how the fuck would I know that? I rather suggested that you knew well but conveniently omited that fact, if that REALLY needs explaining to anyone who's smart. I was only referring to the basic "logic" of your message:
Plasma cutters are good at cutting metal THEREFORE plasma weapons would have great overpenetration capacity.
With the same logic I could say that water guns would be awesome since water cutters are good at cutting metal too.
I merely suggested that there's no way we can equal performance of a cutter to a performance of a long-range weapon, especially having no agreement on how the latter even works.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2016, 08:31:09 pm »
Yeah, agreed that the thing is probably no good. I'm not using it myself. Explosives that can't really be thrown seem to be of not much use in this game. It has always been an experimental item, to check if such a concept is OP or completely worthless.

If it could blow UFO walls, it'd be decent as an early breaching tool, otherwise it needs to be smaller or less weighty such that it can be thrown.

If it could be remotely detonated (I really hope we get this functionality), that might also make it useful.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2016, 08:58:46 pm »

WTF are you blabbering about? I didn't suggest that you literally forgot, because how the fuck would I know that? I rather suggested that you knew well but conveniently omited that fact, if that REALLY needs explaining to anyone who's smart. I was only referring to the basic "logic" of your message:
Plasma cutters are good at cutting metal THEREFORE plasma weapons would have great overpenetration capacity.
With the same logic I could say that water guns would be awesome since water cutters are good at cutting metal too.
I merely suggested that there's no way we can equal performance of a cutter to a performance of a long-range weapon, especially having no agreement on how the latter even works.

You are absolutely correct. Aliens favor efficiency and overpenetration would be waste and not within alien doctrine.

Sorry, language barrier. I don't like you personally and I think you act like an asshole. However, I am by all objective measurement also an asshole...so whatever. That's not to say I don't beleive you are talented and do very good work...but you are an asshole....and I don't like you, but would quite willing to buy you alcohol and fight...it's tradition.

I'll get a handle on it, eventually.

I really should stop driking and posting.

 :o

Offline khade

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2016, 09:11:37 pm »
Maybe what the satchel charge needs is a catapult  :)

Careful with the handle, while it's a good way to make friends, it does hurt.   ;D

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2016, 09:17:00 pm »
Blowing up UFO walls would be too much, really. It'd completely invalidate the super-cumbersome plasma cutter too. For now, I've dropped the weight from 15 to 12 and added some armor damage.

Sorry, language barrier. I don't like you personally and I think you act like an asshole. However, I am by all objective measurement also an asshole...so whatever. That's not to say I don't beleive you are talented and do very good work...but you are an asshole....and I don't like you, but would quite willing to buy you alcohol and fight...it's tradition.

Likewise. I have no idea if you're an asshole or not, but your posts are sure infuriating :) As for me, yeah, I'm not a good person.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #118 on: August 28, 2016, 11:32:54 am »
bad behavior doesn't make a person bad.... I hope. but seriously you are not a bad person... you've brought so much joy and frustration to me and many others through your work.

I think that is like major good karma.

regards

-HH

Offline Star_Treasure

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Re: Weapon Discussion Thread
« Reply #119 on: August 29, 2016, 06:57:24 am »
Gauss weapons should have Gaussian damage, normal weapons should not.

Rather than being a higher tier of weapons, Gaus weapons are just weapons for people who like Gaussian distributions. There everyone is happy.  :P