Author Topic: Faction Elite Units  (Read 10720 times)

Offline BetaSpectre

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2016, 10:05:41 am »
Something I think would be neat would be units that are functionaly indestructible(exceptional armor/resists/HP) except for a single low tech resist.

Replicators from Stargate premise low tech hasn't happened in forever when the unit was built.
I don't think that would make sense in the Stellar Empire. I can understand say Energy Resistant, but Kinetic Resistant to say Gauss? I dunno how that would be possible. Also if such a unit with that ability were to exist I would want to convert it, or use it as armor for the gals which would mean I would then have super OP MLG stuff. I still want academy drones lol.

Offline Meridian

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 6232
  • Aaand we're back!
    • View Profile
    • My Wiki
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2016, 10:50:03 am »
I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.

And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.

If you wait a few days I may even implement your camouflage mechanics for the alpha chryssalid.

I have added the minimum needed features for the active camouflage (and a counter as well).
Feel free to mod the Chryssalid (should be just one line of code) and report back how they didn't randomfuck you ;)
More info: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4822.0.html

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2560
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2016, 04:10:13 am »
That feature is pretty neat, and I am already considering applying it to units that use the loftemp hack, as I hate that mechanic.

The one drawback is the way reaction work (in a sort of exaggerated example):

Currently, let's say a normal chryssalid walks towards you, as soon as its reactions * TUs drop below yours, you take a snapshot, which drops your reactions * TUs below theirs. Since they are pretty far, your snapshot misses. Then they continue approaching until you get another snapshot in, then they reach you and you die.

With the new mechanic, the chryssalid walks towards you and you don't see it, so you do nothing. Then you finally notice it right in front of you and since you didn't shoot before, you still have enough TUs for 2 snap shots at point blank, which both hit and kill the beastie. You live. Camo didn't help..

What we need to complement this is a mechanic that reduces the amount of reaction fire done, something like:

sneaky: X , where default X is 0. Then in the computation, when being considered as a target for reaction fire, you get (reactions + sneaky) * TUs to compare to the enemy's reactions * TUs.

The reason to ask for this and not just buff reactions outright is that it allows to buff "offensive reactions" (your ability to not be fired upon when moving) without buffing "defensive reactions" (your ability to take a shot when others are moving). This allows you to make sneaky outfits (+sneaky but not reactions: you can move more safely and benefit from camo without what I described above, but you don't have better reflexes), as well as quick reflex outfits (buff reactions by +X, but sneaky -Y, so you react to enemies better, but you're not any harder to react to. Assassin outfit would be an example of a non-sneaky, quick reaction one) and obviously the stereotypical ninja (with just + reactions).

Edit: But seeing Yankes' post, it seems like it may be possible to adjust reactions in scripts? I'd have to look.

Offline Surrealistik

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2016, 05:39:54 am »
Another possibility is having the Chryssalid (or other unit) count as being effectively further away for the purpose of calculating accuracy penalties in proportion to its stealth rating (offset by whatever detection rating the shooter has), simulating the difficulty of hitting a heavily camouflaged/difficult to see target.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 05:57:32 am by Surrealistik »

Offline Starving Poet

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2016, 05:52:54 am »
If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat.   One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter.  Soldier X will always have x% chance to hit a target at any given distance.

Because if this is implement and I get lower accuracy for shooting at this chryssalid, why would I ever target the chryssalid?  Why wouldn't I just target one tile behind it?

Offline Surrealistik

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2016, 05:56:54 am »
If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat.   One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter.  Soldier X will always have x% chance to hit a target at any given distance.

Because if this is implement and I get lower accuracy for shooting at this chryssalid, why would I ever target the chryssalid?  Why wouldn't I just target one tile behind it?

The idea is primarily to mitigate the issues with effectively only triggering Reactions at close range as described by Arthanor which it does perfectly.

Offline Dioxine

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 5276
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2016, 06:08:03 am »
If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat.   One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter.

Well, sadly, not quite. While it is hard to miss from 2-3 tiles away, the game will magically, improbably bend trajectories so you'll miss if the dice roll was bad. It does use the same retarded system as xcom 2012 of 'try to adjust trajectory for the dice roll' instead of a honest hitscan as used in Doom and other FPS games. That's why grates and fences are so much trouble - the game tries to calc a trajectory that hits in between the wires, instead of just aiming for the centre of mass. It still pays off in uncertain situations to target tile behind your intended target, and force-fire.

Offline Starving Poet

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2016, 06:59:17 am »
I though it specifically didn't try to aim for the exposed part (not in a way that affects accuracy like XCOM 2012).  I mean that was the whole argument with Volutar back in the day, wasn't it?  He wanted to aim at center mass of the exposed target to make cover more useful instead of picking a trajectory closest to voxel center.

According to Sup:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1856.msg17360.html#msg17360 - we don't roll hits and misses

And according to this:
https://github.com/SupSuper/OpenXcom/blob/518a651712235baf3596120590714859d3e8d91b/src/Battlescape/TileEngine.cpp#L459

The projectile still has to pass into that space.  I can see when it's trying to draw the line it takes steps to find a trajectory that works, but according to accuracy.cpp what is visible isn't taken into considering when actually determining the projectile's trajectory.   The engine finds a trajectory that "works", creates an ellipse around endpoint and picks a new endpoint within that ellipse. The trajectory is, indeed, a cone flattened on the z-axis with a bit of deviation added in to make sure that even shots above 110% (max) accuracy have a chance to miss.  Then the projectile walks forward until it hits something.   Am I misinterpreting the code?

/edit: grammar
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 07:30:57 am by Starving Poet »

Offline Dioxine

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 5276
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2016, 08:00:22 am »
If it is so, then the system is glitchy (I know math, but I can't really read black magic, so can't say about the code). I'm saying from experience, that it DOES target the visible part of the object. Shooting trough grates with 100%+ accuracy usually ends with missing BOTH grate and the target. If there was a proper hitscan with distribution, OR non-glitchy engine, the shots should usually hit (and destroy) the grate.

But maybe that elipsoid distribution is to blame - it would explain, that, counter-logically, hitting anything vertically is very hard, and that kneeling behind a stone never helped anyone avoiding getting hit. The best way to use cover is to stand behind an engine-confusing obstacle, like Skyranger's ramp (ideally so the engine sees your body as multiple target areas). Doing so almost guarantees that you will get hit only by a wildly-missing, random shot.

AFAIK Volutar took a hike because, apparently, there was no place here for someone with his own, heretical ideas regarding trajectories. He wanted a clean, non-glitchy engine for calculating hitscan. Having that, it'd be possible to add a random spread to heart's content. Currently it makes no sense, since outcomes are quite random anyway - your bullet will fly where the engine wants it to, not where it was supposed to.

I tried to work this shit out with Falko, but he didn't get down to coding it, and then randomly disappeared - at least he left a wide assortment of great tools in his wake...

Offline Star_Treasure

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2016, 04:55:59 am »
So no chance of having the ballistics engine overhauled? It would be nice if projectiles could also over-penetrate and ricochet, and if explosions could create shrapnel.

Offline Surrealistik

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2016, 05:08:29 am »
It would be great to have 'penetrating' projectiles like the Null Lance, or the Sectopod's Wrath Cannon from X-Com 2.

Offline Star_Treasure

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2016, 05:51:44 am »
Could probably be simulated by a weapon with rapid fire and no spread.

What I really want is the rallgun from Eraser. Not sure how to implement the X-ray scope.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 06:01:38 am by Star_Treasure »

Offline Surrealistik

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2016, 06:02:55 am »
Could probably be simulated by a weapon with rapid fire and no spread.

What I really want is the rallgun from Eraser. Not sure how to implement the X-ray scope.

Stuff like that is what I was thinking; the Eraser gun is basically the Sniper Gauss, except the latter has no penetration.

Offline Star_Treasure

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2016, 06:40:42 am »
Ugh, now I'm all worked up about something I lack the programming skill to implement, and which nobody else appears to be working on. I hate it when this happens.

Xcom's system, which models the map in 3d dispite being a sprite based 2d game, would make an amazing ballistics sandbox if such features were implemented. Imagine not just bullets going through walls, but projectiles ricocheting and destroyed terrain fragmenting into shrapnel by explosions.

Offline Surrealistik

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
    • View Profile
Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2016, 03:08:37 am »
Spartan Elite.

Basically peak humans pimped out with the very best Spartan gear/salvage (UFOpaedia/stat block in the link).
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:33:02 am by Surrealistik »