Faction Elite Units

[Surrealistik]

Don't believe me that those options I gave you work... sorry if my English is too broken.

OK, so how do you explain the fact that I didn't get randomfucked even a single time yet? Is RNG always rolling in my favour? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

What difficulty are you playing on? And I definitely don't believe you that not once have you never lost a unit or got a unit badly injured by Psi RNG; the answers to Psi up until your gals become the mental juggernaut bitch and hit them with their own pimp are not foolproof (#1 aside which requires gals with strong VD).


@ Dioxine: Psi sometimes doesn't help the enemies; it's random which is precisely why it's so frustrating. You got lucky when it mattered, just like I got lucky when it mattered, so are you consistently replicating this base defense under those conditions?

[Dioxine]

I'll add 2 more general guides:
#6 Spread up in defence, concentrate only for assault.
#7 Kill them fast. It keeps most of them panicking - even if it doesn't affect Provost and Espers, at least the rest of the bunch is less dangerous. Also early Esper kill = less trouble later on.

In general, you cannot allow them to make you their bitch - you need to do the opposite

Also yes, I consistently play Hideout Defense aggressively and have yet to lose one. I came close to losing against Star Gods, tho - had to drag it out to almost 50 turns, like a bitch But this doesn't help anyone who chooses different tactics.

Also - how it is so that Psi can work against the AI? Care to elaborate? Your psi is nowhere near as powerful as theirs.

[Meridian]

What difficulty are you playing on? And I definitely don't believe you that not once have you never lost a unit or got a unit badly injured by Psi RNG; the answers to Psi up until your gals become the mental juggernaut bitch and hit them with their own pimp are not foolproof (#1 aside which requires gals with strong VD).

Playing on superhuman, or whatever it is called in piratez.

Of course I have lost some units... if I didn't lose any units I would stop playing this game!!! I am saying I didn't get randomfucked, not that piratez is the same challenge as tic-tac-toe.
Are you trying to tell me you will consistently not lose any units to your alpha chryssalids?? Don't be ridiculous.

[Surrealistik]

I'll add 2 more general guides:
#6 Spread up in defence, concentrate only for assault.
#7 Kill them fast. It keeps most of them panicking - even if it doesn't affect Provost and Espers, at least the rest of the bunch is less dangerous. Also early Esper kill = less trouble later on.

In general, you cannot allow them to make you their bitch - you need to do the opposite

We've been over this several times, including those specific 'counters', so I'm not interested in rehashing the same counterpoints.

Winning isn't the problem, it's suffering random casualties randomly.

Also yes, I consistently play Hideout Defense aggressively and have yet to lose one. I came close to losing against Star Gods, tho - had to drag it out to almost 50 turns, like a bitch But this doesn't help anyone who chooses different tactics.

Hideout Defenses are _easy_ to win if you're prepared, Psi or not. I've yet to experience the full power of the Star Gods though.

Also - how it is so that Psi can work against the AI? Care to elaborate? Your psi is nowhere near as powerful as theirs.

I don't bother with VooDoo against the Provost/Esper, I possess their bodyguards and tell them to execute Order 66 so at last the Jedi are no more.

It feels like cheating though, so I will probably stop using it and opt to keep my involvement with the Force at a wand slinging Harry Potter level.


@ Meridian: I'll lose units to those Chryssalids, but only because I made an explicit mistake, not because a dice roll randomly decided someone should die.

[Meridian]

@ Meridian: I'll lose units to those Chryssalids, but only because I made an explicit mistake, not because a dice roll randomly decided someone should die.

You don't even believe that yourself

Maybe we can discuss this over beer some day, right now I see no point to continue discussing. Too much bias.

[Surrealistik]

You don't even believe that yourself

Maybe we can discuss this over beer some day, right now I see no point to continue discussing. Too much bias.

Again, where is the RNG vs a melee unit that you have to be closer to see, while you have items to specifically counter invisibility (again, per the new invisibility that is to be implemented), vs what is a literal dice roll that doesn't respect LoS?

[Meridian]

Again, where is the RNG vs a melee unit that you have to be closer to see, while you have items to specifically counter invisibility (again, per the new invisibility that is to be implemented), vs what is a literal dice roll that doesn't respect LoS?

OK, forget the whole invisibility.

What about just plain old vanilla Chryssalid staring at your Skyranger's ramp on turn 1... (with sticks and stones in your hands; as per original argument, i.e. no supergirls and no late game)... it's RNG who decides if he's just gonna walk away or randomfuck your whole squad.

Btw. what about a proof?
Just upload here a saved game (either mission beginning or better just before the mission starts), where they randomfucked you... and I will upload a video to youtube showing you how not to get randomfucked in that same mission.

[nrafield]

Well, to be honest that is not a perfect analogy as melee threats are much easier to deal in X-piratez as there's one thing you have right from the start - hammertime. Get a few strong gals, give them hammers and just rush them. You probably will lose a few of them, but, if you can actually get some hits in, the likelihood is high that not only will your target be down for the count, they will also probably not die so you're gonna poach yourself a high-tech prisoner. (very nice against Mechtoids, actually I don't even think there is any tactic better against them outside of late game)

Of course it's another thing if your target was a Chryssalid that not only is lucky not to fall over in one hit, but also counterattacks and zombifies your gal. It might turn into a vicious cycle.

[Surrealistik]

OK, forget the whole invisibility.

What about just plain old vanilla Chryssalid staring at your Skyranger's ramp on turn 1... (with sticks and stones in your hands; as per original argument, i.e. no supergirls and no late game)... it's RNG who decides if he's just gonna walk away or randomfuck your whole squad.

Btw. what about a proof?
Just upload here a saved game (either mission beginning or better just before the mission starts), where they randomfucked you... and I will upload a video to youtube showing you how not to get randomfucked in that same mission.

Playing on superhuman, or whatever it is called in piratez.

Of course I have lost some units... if I didn't lose any units I would stop playing this game!!! I am saying I didn't get randomfucked, not that piratez is the same challenge as tic-tac-toe.
Are you trying to tell me you will consistently not lose any units to your alpha chryssalids?? Don't be ridiculous.

Did you lose units due to Psi RNG? That's called getting randomfucked.

Randomfucked is not losing a mission, or losing a campaign because of psi RNG, it's about getting randomly fucked, whatever form that might take, even after you've taken all the necessary precautions. Hell man, Dioxide has basically straight up acknowledged that this is a thing.

As for Chryssalids in that situation, there are answers to said RNG. Do you have an alternate exit to kill it from? Is there anyone else facing the ramp that would make killing the thing directly untenable? Ultimately, if you're in a mission where you're clearly in over your head, and you can't do it Capt'n cause you don't have the power and there are no answers that don't carry undue risk, the proper response is to leave, which sucks, but that kind of macro level RNG at least doesn't cost you anything outside of a Pogrom.

[Arthanor]

This recurring random difficulty argument is getting stale already... Sure Psi can mess you up and it happens "randomly", but the AI moving to the right place to kill you is also random, the AI spawning at the right place to mess you up when you disembark is random.

You can take measures to lessen the likelihood of the AI walking to the right place to kill you, and you can take steps to reduce the likelihood of psi messing you up, like arming recurring targets more lightly, or isolating them.

Much like you can favor a certain playstyle to reduce the chances of getting "random" owned by shooting (play in smoke, always move in a certain way to maximize mutual surprise, camp&snipe), you can also adapt your playstyle to minimize the odds of psi randomly messing you up. Being more aggressive, adapting the spread of your gals and your weapons to the situation all helps with psi.

The easiest way to make sure you won't kill yourself when MC'd or panicked is to use poison gas ammo and armors immune to smoke damage. Then with stun gas to take captives and poison gas to kill the troopers very efficiently, you're only left with the few enemies that are immune to smoke (probably only the provost? Espers aren't immune. Cyberdiscs are probably immune, but flamethrowers make cyberdiscs a joke, while they aren't great against gals, especially indoors since it has no range). Then the only chance of losing a soldier is if it is MC'd and the AI walks it past the frontline to a place where you can't save it, which is more due to bad planning on your part than anything.

Can you loose soldiers occasionally to Psi? Yeah, sure, but it's far from common. I lose much fewer gals to Psi than to shooting, or a failed melee rush. If you're complaining about Psi and haven't met star gods yet, good luck. And good luck to your computer, you'll probably smash it in frustration.

Vanilla Psi is terrible, but Piratez has gone very far and made it much more manageable. Hopefully this topic won't come up all the time..

As for the original ideas: More variations, especially in late game, would be nice.

I consider an invisible chryssalid to be much more "obnoxious difficulty" than Psi. It will randomly mess me up here or there depending on where it spawned, or will turn the game in a "scan every other step just in case" game, which is not something I consider enjoyable. Star Gods/Cat girls and their funky invisibility already kind of push it, but they're not fully invisible and are either the end game enemy, or very soft.

The academy mecha sounds cool.

The guild superheavy tank sounds bad, just cranking up armor and damage doesn't make a unit very interesting to me. High armor means you need your weapons to roll higher to do damage and I despise having to spam units with the best guns I have and just getting zeros, then the next time killing another in 3 shots that happened to roll high. Medium armors, good resists and lots of HPs is the way to go as far as I am concerned. You get durability without the randomness of outcomes when tackling one.

[Surrealistik]

Much like you can favor a certain playstyle to reduce the chances of getting "random" owned by shooting (play in smoke, always move in a certain way to maximize mutual surprise, camp&snipe), you can also adapt your playstyle to minimize the odds of psi randomly messing you up. Being more aggressive, adapting the spread of your gals and your weapons to the situation all helps with psi.

The easiest way to make sure you won't kill yourself when MC'd or panicked is to use poison gas ammo and armors immune to smoke damage. Then with stun gas to take captives and poison gas to kill the troopers very efficiently, you're only left with the few enemies that are immune to smoke (probably only the provost? Espers aren't immune. Cyberdiscs are probably immune, but flamethrowers make cyberdiscs a joke, while they aren't great against gals, especially indoors since it has no range). Then the only chance of losing a soldier is if it is MC'd and the AI walks it past the frontline to a place where you can't save it, which is more due to bad planning on your part than anything.

Didn't have poison gas ammo + choke immune armours (nor did I know such things existed; blind playthrough) before I tackled the problem directly by minting Psi Juggernauts.

Also, 80-100 TUs + 100 or more Energy means the AI can easily Piper your soldiers to oblivion almost regardless of where you put them.

Can you loose soldiers occasionally to Psi? Yeah, sure, but it's far from common. I lose much fewer gals to Psi than to shooting, or a failed melee rush. If you're complaining about Psi and haven't met star gods yet, good luck. And good luck to your computer, you'll probably smash it in frustration.

MC/Panic was my leading cause of casualties (well) beyond anything else. I rarely lose troops to shooting (scout + smoke/squadsight sniping + indirect fire), and don't really go for melee rushes unless I'm at least 95% certain I can get away with it without meaningful retaliation.

I consider an invisible chryssalid to be much more "obnoxious difficulty" than Psi. It will randomly mess me up here or there depending on where it spawned, or will turn the game in a "scan every other step just in case" game, which is not something I consider enjoyable. Star Gods/Cat girls and their funky invisibility already kind of push it, but they're not fully invisible and are either the end game enemy, or very soft.

As repeatedly mentioned, the suggestion assumes 'next gen' invisibility, where like X-Com Apocalypse, cloaking only means you have to get closer to actually see the unit, not the silly 'can only be seen from certain angles/diagonals' that exists currently. Further, there will apparently be items that allows you to see such units at further distances.

Lastly, I proposed that they do not show up in significant numbers (specifically having mentioned only 1-2 show up by the mid game on missions where they appear) until the end game per the Star Gods.

The guild superheavy tank sounds bad, just cranking up armor and damage doesn't make a unit very interesting to me. High armor means you need your weapons to roll higher to do damage and I despise having to spam units with the best guns I have and just getting zeros, then the next time killing another in 3 shots that happened to roll high. Medium armors, good resists and lots of HPs is the way to go as far as I am concerned. You get durability without the randomness of outcomes when tackling one.

Or use Lascannons. Basically I want to force the player to outmaneuver the tank, exploiting its weak armour facings and las weakness; the specific numbers might benefit from some tweaking, particularly the side armour, but I think the basic concept is sound.

[nrafield]

Still having it invisible like that would just not be fun.  There probably be little way to counterplay that because Aye Phones don't have unlimited range, and if you can counterplay them with parrots and other expendable units there's not that much of a point to invisibility anyway.

Having them just spit is okay on it's own.

[Surrealistik]

Still having it invisible like that would just not be fun.  There probably be little way to counterplay that because Aye Phones don't have unlimited range, and if you can counterplay them with parrots and other expendable units there's not that much of a point to invisibility anyway.

Having them just spit is okay on it's own.

The countermeasure items actually allow you to see 'invisible' units further away so far as I know; not to the extent that you can see them at normal distances or the advantages of invisibility are completely obviated, but enough that it matters and helps you avoid making poor movements.

[Arthanor]

Since you're a quote cutter...

Didn't have poison gas ammo + choke immune armours (nor did I know such things existed; blind playthrough) before I tackled the problem directly by minting Psi Juggernauts.

Well, that's one reason you're having issues with Psi. You are not meant to be able to tackle everything at every time in Piratez. Sounds like you didn't have the right tools.

MC/Panic was my leading cause of casualties beyond anything else. I rarely lose troops to shooting (scout + smoke/squadsight sniping + indirect fire), and don't really go for melee rushes unless I'm at least 95% certain I can get away with it without meaningful retaliation.

So you use exactly the game style that Psi is supposed to counteract, as many of us find it gamey and boring. The AI has no way to tackle well a proper scout+sniper tactic, which has been the established way of winning in XCom, even with starting gear. As far as I know, Piratez intends to change the required gameplay and favor something more aggressive. Maybe it's not the mod for you? There are plenty of other mods that support that as much as vanilla.

As repeatedly mentioned, the suggestion assumes 'next gen' invisibility, where like X-Com Apocalypse, cloaking only means you have to get closer to actually see the unit, not the silly 'can only be seen from certain angles/diagonals' that exists currently. Further, there will apparently be items that allows you to see such units at further distances.

Lastly, I proposed that they do not show up in significant numbers (specifically having mentioned only 1-2 show up by the mid game on missions where they appear) until the end game per the Star Gods.

Well, that really doesn't change much. The potential of a single invisible chryssalid is potential for a big FU if you don't scan all the time, so you scan all the time. You kill one? Well maybe there's two, so you scan all the time. You kill two? Well.. maybe you can stop scanning. How did you know there were going to be only two? Oh, of course, foreknowledge. Unless it's something like 10 tiles, being able to see it at more than a tile doesn't really help. Running into a chryssalid unexpected is no fun (but fair with the normal one, since it has to compensate needing to be in melee range). The invisibility adds to the odds, and just further favors the boring slow movement, scanning, smoking and sniping gameplay.

Or use Lascannons. Basically I want to force the player to outmaneuver the tank, exploiting its weak armour facings and las weakness; the specific numbers might benefit from some tweaking, particularly the side armour, but I think the basic concept is sound.

A unit with a "directional shield" that you need to flank could be interesting. But generally flanking is easy to achieve with melee and that's the chief way to take out armor, along with throwing explosives which target under armor. Requiring a specific weapon (type) is also unfortunate as it reduces choices and options.

It's interesting, and I trust Dioxine to implement fun and challenging units.

[Surrealistik]

#1: I tackled it regardless. I'm not going to let my frustrations with a bullshit RNG based mechanic win.


#2: Sniping and artillery are gamey? Boring is probably true, but if you know of a better way to tackle I/I, I'd like to hear it. As is no other approaches seem to work nearly as well, regardless of intent.


#3: It changes everything, because the proposed counters offered alongside the changes to invisibility increase your detection range such that finding the Chryssalids isn't nearly as tedious and miserable as Aye-Phoning your way around the map. I believe the default detection range for invisible units was said to be 3 tiles; the scanner items/armours or whatever could increase that to pretty much any range; I expect that in the final calculus they will help immensely in helping to counter invisibility without completely obviating the mechanic's tactical benefits.


#4: Like I said, it's a question of tweaking the numbers really (resistances/health/armour values); I'm more interested in the concept of a giant ass heavy battle tank that needs to be flanked and outmaneuvered or it will fuck you up regardless of your tech/toys while being impervious to your normal countermeasures. There's no reason that can't be implemented well.