Make Chryssalids Great Again

[Dioxine]

Well, humans are not an exception. Not only did huge crises happen (like the fall of Rome), which can be explained away by natural disasters, but also there is a proof against the general notion. From the article Surrealistik linked:

On the other hand, this research has shown that since the 1970s the World System does not develop hyperbolically any more, its development diverges more and more from the blow-up regime, and at present it is moving "from singularity", rather than "toward singularity"

It's kinda bold to demand the principle of accelerating returns from the Star Gods, if our own civilization managed to shot itself in the knee around 1970s (which is largely in line with my own research) and diverged from the model of accelerating returns towards the model of stasis - even though no natural disaster has befell us, and resources never had been so plentiful.

[Star_Treasure]

We as a society value progress because we are in the middle of an industrial revolution (Moores law) but exponential growth is not sustainable, our society will either hit a plateau, or collapse entirely.

The Etherials are a stagnant civilization which sees no need to improve their already godlike technology. Furthermore, even if they did have better technology, they have no reason to care about earth (A failed experiment by the time of Piratez), and would probably not bother using it on us.

[Surrealistik]

Citing that law as a reason why the setting that Dioxine created can't work like Dioxine intends it to is weird. It's not like it's a law of nature either (unlike say.. Newton's laws or the laws of thermodynamic). There are plenty of stagnating sci-fi settings and the Piratez setting does seem like a decadent empire. Where XCom is typically optimistic (aliens invade, humans band together, learn all their tech and kick their butts), Piratez is quite a dystopia and nothing progresses much (technology is still generally inferior to alien tech from XCom:EU) besides the gals who are developing stuff very rapidly.

It's important to keep in mind that I am not asserting there is no way the Ethereals could be locked into technological stasis; I am saying that the Ethereals almost certainly would have to commit to a policy of stasis on some level to preclude any kind of significant technological innovation after 600 years given their tech base, and the Empire's evident stability (which presents a conundrum; if you have peace, you have all the resources and opportunity needed for advancement barring specific policy to the contrary; if you have war, you _must_ advance unless your opposition is markedly inferior). It's something to consider when shaping the lore of the universe, and making it consistent/believable.

As for the mechanical side, yes, I think if spitting were to be included, the AI would need a tweak such that the spit is _only_ used in cases where there is no pathfinding. Alternately though I suppose you could engender a fluff reason for impregnation occurring via the spit; i.e. the substance is riddled with eggs, with one ultimately developing when physiological conditions are 'right' and the host body has been adequately subverted with venom. On the flipside if this route is taken I'm concerned about Chryssalids devolving into better Celatids that use their spit in exclusion of their melee.

I agree that changing the Aggression level to 2 for the mindless/aggressive meleers would probably constitute an improvement given the ridiculous behaviour engendered by Aggression 1.

Law of accelerating must hit the ceiling at some point unless a civilization develops and keeps developing intelligences surpassing their own brain power. From what is known, Ethereals did this only once to create brains in jars. Also such a civilization must keep ever-growing records and research facilities.
Also, to innovate upon something, the tech in question has to be understood. If the divide between understood tech and maximum tech is too wide (intermediate techs are lost), innovation is impossible.
It is not clear if Ethereals and their brains understand their own tech. It is fully possible that original creators of their tech are dead or no longer in possession of required knowledge.
If the Ethereal tech is fully understood only by their 'priesthood', and any external knowledge is supressed, it also blocks improvement.
Another of endless possibilities is commitment/understanding of only select areas of high tech (probably mathematics in the case of Ethereals).

The cyberbrain strikes me as the sort that's capable of improving on the tech that exists in 90s if it were willing; though we don't know exactly what it is besides some biomechanical hybrid, if it had say quantum computing capabilities, it is almost certain we would see _some_ manner of material technological improvement, even if it opted not to self-improve, or create intelligences that were superior to its own. Clearly it is not at the horizons/limits of what it is capable of since mere humans were able to reverse engineer and master all of the technology save Elerium. Even if the governor did not possess a complete understanding of the tech at its disposal in the 90s despite being able to fabricate it from scratch, 600 years for an entity like it is more than enough time to capture that understanding and improve upon it.

I get that you're probably going for a WH40k approach; if so, keep in mind that 40k _does_ feature a policy of stasis among the Adeptus Mechanicus in terms of technological advancement at the bleeding edges, albeit one that's inconstantly applied except for certain key concepts (like sentient AIs), with technological and scientific progress ultimately occurring, albeit slowly. That said, likewise mirroring how certain factions and subsections within the Machine Cult advance technology per their independent initiatives, the major powers might feature areas they conduct genuine R&D, with the Church having a keen interest in alien genetics, and perhaps even splicing it with their own in order to become 'transcendent' (on that note, Ethereal/Human hybrids would be hella-sweet).

The bottom line however, is that even if accelerating change proves unsustainable or competing theories prove accurate (and honestly, I very much doubt that they will with the advent of large scale quantum computing), it is almost certain that there had to be some active policy or edict in place to effect the sort of 600 year stasis seen in Piratez, because there isn't even any kind of significant linear advancement, nevermind exponential. Even if you would argue that there's a 'tech embargo' or localized exclusion of advanced Stellar Empire tech with respect to Earth, the same would not be true of the Governor's crib in Cydonia which should be replete in the best it has to offer.

[Star_Treasure]

The entire solar system is a backwater, Sidonia is still better than earth, but it's not going to have "The best the star gods have to offer."

And 600 years with no technological progress has been the norm for many periods in human civilization.

[Surrealistik]

The entire solar system is a backwater, Sidonia is still better than earth, but it's not going to have "The best the star gods have to offer."

And 600 years with no technological progress has been the norm for many periods in human civilization.

It may not be the bleeding edge, but it sure as hell will have upgraded tech vs 600 years ago.

Also at no point in human history did a stable, prosperous pax Empirica of some kind feature complete or near complete stagnation in terms of technological advancement for anywhere close to 600 years; the Stellar Empire is unchallenged, has plenty of time and resources to advance tech from its foundations in the 90s and its branch in our solar system has done virtually nothing; there has to be an explanation for that. An edict of some kind seems to be the only thing that makes sense.

[khade]

It is not unchallenged, but not challenged much in our system.  And it's far older than the earth conquest.  Post game stuff would likely include the Star Gods sending a pacification force to Earth.  Hope the players leave their forces in good enough shape for that after Cydonia.

We are at best, Jerusalem at the height of the Roman Empire, barely even worth the effort to pacify. Or possibly Britain closer to the fall, cause enough trouble and they might abandon us while focusing on more useful places.  Neither is really a good place for us to be.

The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.

[Surrealistik]

It is not unchallenged, but not challenged much in our system.  And it's far older than the earth conquest.  Post game stuff would likely include the Star Gods sending a pacification force to Earth.  Hope the players leave their forces in good enough shape for that after Cydonia.

That would be cool, but again I cite that conundrum: either you have war whereupon innovation is necessitated, or you have peace where innovation is inevitable because of the abundance of resources and time.

We are at best, Jerusalem at the height of the Roman Empire, barely even worth the effort to pacify. Or possibly Britain closer to the fall, cause enough trouble and they might abandon us while focusing on more useful places.  Neither is really a good place for us to be.

Sure, but that doesn't explain why not even the Star Gods, whether on Cydonia or otherwise, feature upgraded tech. Sure, maybe outside of an edict of stasis you can argue that the human factions get all the hand-me-downs and left overs from six centuries ago, and are never truly trusted or deemed worthy of the good stuff (and I honestly think even that much is a stretch), but not even the true constituents and enforcers of the Empire have updated gear.

The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.

Six centuries of stagnation with no visible advancements whatsoever?

[Solarius Scorch]

The Chinese had that sort of stagnation at some point, as I understand it, the innovation wasn't stopped, but was often ignored.

I think this is the key point.

Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.

Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.

Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.

[Surrealistik]

I think this is the key point.

Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.

Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.

Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.

This comes off as rationalization of an almost complete and utter lack of technological advancement: we're not just talking dismissal or suppression of key or specific advancements, but across the board stasis. This was simply not the case for the Chinese; there is no true parallel in history. Further, as a wholesale stagnation this goes far beyond simply 'no better dakka'; the supporting technologies haven't advanced one iota either. Maybe the servant races, if they are indeed new innovations rather than imports, might be scarce examples of progress, but if they truly do represent progress as custom purposed species for things like killing, then why not deadlier Chryssalids (though personally I don't care who is ultimately responsible for weaponizing the species)? Again, even if we accept a technological embargo or censure of Earth, that still wouldn't explain the lack of advancement on Cydonia, or among the Star God vessels.

Lastly, slaves may have surpassed primitive steam engines for the Romans, but there is no way they fill every conceivable niche and need in an vast interstellar Empire such that they completely obviate the need for innovation.

[Star_Treasure]

I think this is the key point.

Romans knew the steam machine; it was designed, built and tested. Yet nobody was interested, because everyone had a simpler energy source: slaves. Well, Star Gods have lesser races and factions do their job for them, which I think is a pretty good analogue.

Besides, controlling technology seems to be the most important means of controlling Earth. Star Gods only give what they feel they can control, like all the Hellerium tech (and Hellerium is pretty much inaccessible to anyone who can't buy it from the Empire directly). They're obviously not giving away their best stuff, they're giving stuff that was designed to be given away long ago for sub-civs like Earth.
Even Star Gods themselves, whenever interacting with Earthlings, use pretty much the same plasma tech. It's probably to protect their secrets, and besides, why not? They have their psi powers anyway, which are their greatest weapon (including dealing damage). Note that even when they use equipment, it's usually their constructs: Cyclops, Waspites or Guardians, not Star Gods proper.

Oh by the way, these servant races are a good example of new tech introduced by Star Gods over the last centuries. I do not know if they're fresh inventions or just something that is used on already conquered worlds, but they weren't here before. This is the kind of progress that is useful for the Star Gods, not better plasmas.

This so much.

It should be pointed out, that in UFO, Xcom actually improves on a lot of alien tech for that reason. Notice that the sectopod is resistant to plasma but vulnerable to lasers (But has a laser weapon). The Etherials have more advanced weaponry than plasma, but they use plasma because it's good enough to take out anything the locals would throw at them.

They could also have given floaters armor comparable to Xcom flying armor. But why bother? That would just make them more expensive and more of a problem if they revolted. Better to just spam a bunch of expendable clones with heavy plasma.

Lids don't need to spit, because lids are a terror weapon designed to devastate civilian populations, not a military weapon designed to withstand an airborne assault. Heavy plasma is the star gods answer to airborne threats. If you want to make X-com harder, consider not powergaming.

[Star_Treasure]

Lastly, slaves may have surpassed primitive steam engines for the Romans, but there is no way they fill every conceivable niche and need in an vast interstellar Empire such that they completely obviate the need for innovation.

Why would the star gods need to innovate? They won, humanity became just another one of their many failed experiments. They have no reason to invest in the infrastructure of a backwater planet, and in fact doing so would only make them a possible threat. Cydonia can be considered part of earth for all the star gods care, it's just a remote outpost. It did it's job just fine. As for UFOs, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there a whole bunch of new ones? Didn't the battleship get downgraded to cruiser?

The Brown Bess musket was used by the British empire for over 100 years. The AK47 turns 70 next year, and the M16 is approaching 50. If you consider the logistical constraints of a galactic empire, 600 years is not much of a step up from that. Slaving empires encourage stasis.

[Surrealistik]

This so much.

Already addressed.

It should be pointed out, that in UFO, Xcom actually improves on a lot of alien tech for that reason. Notice that the sectopod is resistant to plasma but vulnerable to lasers (But has a laser weapon). The Etherials have more advanced weaponry than plasma, but they use plasma because it's good enough to take out anything the locals would throw at them.

The Sectopod isn't proof of some reserve of superior armaments. Hell, the Cyberdisc's plasma cannon is deadlier and more accurate than the Sectopod's laser cannon despite lacking autofire.

They could also have given floaters armor comparable to Xcom flying armor. But why bother? That would just make them more expensive and more of a problem if they revolted. Better to just spam a bunch of expendable clones with heavy plasma.

Please don't tell me you're going to try to rationalize the design of every alien in the game in a completely tangential attempt to defend 600 years of full blown tech stasis in the context of this argument; things are truly getting absurd now. Floaters are weak because they're an early game enemy, not because of any concern about 'revolt'. Beyond that the concept of a Floater as a military unit is ridiculous, particularly for something intended to be mass produced; slow, weak, frail, inaccurate, and each one is treated to an intensive surgical procedure and substitution of major organs, which would probably be more resource intensive than any grafting or issuing of armour.

Lids don't need to spit, because lids are a terror weapon designed to devastate civilian populations, not a military weapon designed to withstand an airborne assault. Heavy plasma is the star gods answer to airborne threats. If you want to make X-com harder, consider not powergaming.

Or perhaps you can recognize that X-Com was a game first and foremost, was riddled with absurdities for the sake of gameplay and we have the opportunity to fix flaws with elements of the game rather than passively accept them and self-handicap. But beyond that, yes, Lids are initially conceived as a terror unit, but there is little reason their role could not be expanded. A cheap, tough, fast, deadly, self-reproducing combatant with an incredibly rapid metabolism that ensures a limited lifespan for ease of disposal when the dust has settled has a great deal of promise as a bioweapon, particularly if it can be made to deal with ranged or airborne threats.

Why would the star gods need to innovate? They won, humanity became just another one of their many failed experiments. They have no reason to invest in the infrastructure of a backwater planet, and in fact doing so would only make them a possible threat. Cydonia can be considered part of earth for all the star gods care, it's just a remote outpost. It did it's job just fine. As for UFOs, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there a whole bunch of new ones? Didn't the battleship get downgraded to cruiser?

Why _wouldn't_ they innovate? They're a Stellar Empire, they're apparently still conquering territory (according to other posters), they still have need to move forward and improve. There is nothing that specifically compels stasis, while there are active pressures that encourage advancement. Yes, Earth may be a backwater, but it is absurd to assert that this some how justifies 600 years of arrested development: no local innovations, no iterative improvements, no tech filtering down from other segments of the Empire, nothing.

The Brown Bess musket was used by the British empire for over 100 years. The AK47 turns 70 next year, and the M16 is approaching 50. If you consider the logistical constraints of a galactic empire, 600 years is not much of a step up from that. Slaving empires encourage stasis.

If you feel that we will be using the same weapon systems and armaments from now till hundreds of years in the future, or that weapons that are several decades old otherwise justifies 600 years of armament and technological stasis (with weapon retention periods declining as our technology advances) I don't know what to tell you other than that you're clearly wrong.

[Star_Treasure]

I'll say it again. The British used the brown Bess musket for over 100 years, during a period in which they were conquering more or less the entire globe. This period of conquest and expansion did NOT force them to improve their weapons, it in fact discouraged it.

They could have invented better weapons, in fact better weapons were known during that time period. They could have used breachloading rifles or even semi automatic air guns. But they specifically chose not to. Rolling out a new weapon to every regiment in the global empire, and training every last soldier how to properly use them. And then you'd have a pile of old, useless weapons.

Bottom line is, Empires are bureaucracies, and bureaucracies hate change. The same pattern is visible with the US military, we've been fighting wars in the middle east for decades, and nobody's been able to replace them M16 with anything other than another M16 with a few minor improvements. An interstellar empire would have it even worse.


I'll also point out again, that there ARE a lot of new things in Xpiratez. There are a bunch of new ships and the battleship from UFO got downgraded to a cruiser. We also don't know what weapons the star gods are using to fight their wars on the other side of the galaxy, and we probably never will, because earth is a failed experiment and our solar system is an unimportant backwater.

[khade]

Another factor, which I realized I forgot to bring up, and didn't see anywhere, is that the so called Star Gods are not actually in charge, they're higher up the totem pole than the humans, but they're not the top by any means, think less Roman Empire and more British Raj in nature.

I think it's funny how hard all of us are trying to win, in a category that doesn't matter and that we have no authority over.  There is innovation going on, there is new uses of technology out there, even on Earth. Factions are encouraged to innovate but shackled at the same time. It's like they're messing with us because it amuses them 

Even in a time of no major changes, there is enhancement of what you've got access to, the middle ages are a good time to look at for that sort of thing.  But most of what we get access to is largely obsolete junk, what if the weapons and ships used by those forced to manage this useless backwater are junk as well?

[nrafield]

Who would even want to enhance Chryssalids? They are dangereous, scary, and way more risky to have them turned against you than anything else.