Author Topic: Make Chryssalids Great Again  (Read 23528 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2016, 07:02:10 pm »
So many words, but what is your thesis, Surrealistik? That the Star Gods force a policy of stagnation? Because it's true (as for the reasons, and various nuances, they have been laid out in the mod). They did somehow survive as a civilization for millions of years without innovating much - their tech is i-Phoney and spotty, they can't even build a real space cruiser it seems.

Offline Yankes

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 07:30:43 pm »
If you feel that we will be using the same weapon systems and armaments from now till hundreds of years in the future, or that weapons that are several decades old otherwise justifies 600 years of armament and technological stasis (with weapon retention periods declining as our technology advances) I don't know what to tell you other than that you're clearly wrong.
I would like invert this question and ask what they improve in 600y BEFORE invading earth. TFTD aliens are from 65My years ago and they have comparable tech level as aliens from today. Only difference is adaptation not overall improvements.

Therefore there is stasis in alien civilization and only question is why.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 08:18:54 pm by Yankes »

Offline Star_Treasure

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2016, 08:55:09 pm »
Who would even want to enhance Chryssalids? They are dangereous, scary, and way more risky to have them turned against you than anything else.

This too, the arguments for making Lids that can spit are starting to sound like the arguments for making a T-rex that can turn invisible.

Then again, the star gods would tottaly do that for shits and giggles.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2016, 10:10:08 pm »
I'll say it again. The British used the brown Bess musket for over 100 years, during a period in which they were conquering more or less the entire globe. This period of conquest and expansion did NOT force them to improve their weapons, it in fact discouraged it.

They could have invented better weapons, in fact better weapons were known during that time period. They could have used breachloading rifles or even semi automatic air guns. But they specifically chose not to. Rolling out a new weapon to every regiment in the global empire, and training every last soldier how to properly use them. And then you'd have a pile of old, useless weapons.

Bottom line is, Empires are bureaucracies, and bureaucracies hate change. The same pattern is visible with the US military, we've been fighting wars in the middle east for decades, and nobody's been able to replace them M16 with anything other than another M16 with a few minor improvements. An interstellar empire would have it even worse.


I'll also point out again, that there ARE a lot of new things in Xpiratez. There are a bunch of new ships and the battleship from UFO got downgraded to a cruiser. We also don't know what weapons the star gods are using to fight their wars on the other side of the galaxy, and we probably never will, because earth is a failed experiment and our solar system is an unimportant backwater.

Again, as technology advances, and you yourself as noted, retention periods of weaponry decline, even of widespread standard issue small arms. The Bass Musket may have been in use for 100 years; more advanced weaponry devised since has  had a much shorter life cycle than that. Currently the M16 is looking to be replaced. In the meanwhile, the military technologies of today have revolutionized combat and deployment in all forms vis a vis as few as 30 years ago. Bureaucracy or not, backwater or not, 600 years is a long time for a high tech, high resource advanced civilization to make substantive changes and improvements on all forms and aspects of its technology, particularly when in competition with others. The Bass Musket justifies nothing.

So many words, but what is your thesis, Surrealistik? That the Star Gods force a policy of stagnation? Because it's true (as for the reasons, and various nuances, they have been laid out in the mod). They did somehow survive as a civilization for millions of years without innovating much - their tech is i-Phoney and spotty, they can't even build a real space cruiser it seems.

Yes, because such a policy is the only thing that would actually explain this level of stagnation (aside from some manner of catastrophy which does not seem to have happened).

This too, the arguments for making Lids that can spit are starting to sound like the arguments for making a T-rex that can turn invisible.

Then again, the star gods would tottaly do that for shits and giggles.

They're psionically controlled (ala beastmasters), and as an added failsafe, they almost certainly have extremely short lifespans due to their insane metabolic rate; I very much doubt that weaponized Chryssalids would be of concern to the Star Gods, particularly as you would obviously not customize them to be uncontrollable. The arguments for making a spitting Chryssalid are sound from a gameplay perspective and a canon one (particularly in a universe where flight capable armour is a thing).


@Yankes: The TFTD aliens were in _literal_ stasis however, excepting small, intermittent expeditions/scouting parties.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:53:08 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Yankes

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2016, 11:15:02 pm »
@Yankes: The TFTD aliens were in _literal_ stasis however, excepting small, intermittent expeditions/scouting parties.
But you don't get my point. All of they tech is 65My old version of tech of aliens from first game. This mean that aliens from first game do not advance anything in that long period compare to that they had millions years ago. Another 600 will not made difference.

btw of M16, right now there no new technology that is better than it. There was big jumps between muskets -> breach-loaders -> repeating rifles -> self-loading -> full-automatic. There was many test for finding new "tier" but most proposals was to much convoluted and not reliable to be better than M16 e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet (new approach that right now failed completely)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11 (without bullets cases you have problems with radiating heat from combustion, unexpected isn't it?)

Right now if something replace M16 this will be no more different to M16 than AK47 to M16.
Probably only real improvement to that would be explosive ammo but this is old as WWII other wise you will need solve human body limitations that limit that we can expects form infantry rifles based on gun powder.

Another example of hitting roof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol over 100y of service. With some tweaks it probably will last for another 100y.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2016, 11:48:59 pm »
But you don't get my point. All of they tech is 65My old version of tech of aliens from first game. This mean that aliens from first game do not advance anything in that long period compare to that they had millions years ago. Another 600 will not made difference.

We actually don't know the level of tech T'leth had at the time it went into the ocean; all the sonic tech and the like are necessary innovations due to its new, watery environment which don't tell us what T'leth was packing before then.

That said, T'leth and Cydonia are clearly related, and there's no doubt that T'leth did have rather advanced technology at the time of its crash; enough that it the aliens on Cydonia should be miles ahead of where they are. The only reasonable explanation is that there were several, near-terminal catastrophes between the time of T'leth's crash and Mars' assault on earth, with the Stellar Empire going through several rises and falls (or perhaps not even having been formed, with the various species which constitute it infighting during this time). On a timeline of tens of millions of years, it is doubtful whether even systemic social engineering could engender almost complete stasis for so long, even if for whatever reason a species was committed to such policy for so long.

Quote
btw of M16, right now there no new technology that is better than it. There was big jumps between muskets -> breach-loaders -> repeating rifles -> self-loading -> full-automatic. There was many test for finding new "tier" but most proposals was to much convoluted and not reliable to be better than M16 e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet (new approach that right now failed completely)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11 (without bullets cases you have problems with radiating heat from combustion, unexpected isn't it?)

Right now if something replace M16 this will be no more different to M16 than AK47 to M16.
Probably only real improvement to that would be explosive ammo but this is old as WWII other wise you will need solve human body limitations that limit that we can expects form infantry rifles based on gun powder.

There is no assault rifle _sufficiently_ better per the Pentagon's perspective than it that it justifies the expense of replacement. That said, there are most definitely better rifles (several American, German and Russian models come to mind).

That said, the Pentagon is most definitely on the look for a next gen assault rifle sufficiently cost and performance effective which would merit such replacement.

Quote
Another example of hitting roof: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol over 100y of service. With some tweaks it probably will last for another 100y.

In light of pending next gen body armour (nanotubes) I doubt it.

Offline Yankes

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2016, 01:24:56 am »
We actually don't know the level of tech T'leth had at the time it went into the ocean; all the sonic tech and the like are necessary innovations due to its new, watery environment which don't tell us what T'leth was packing before then.

That said, T'leth and Cydonia are clearly related, and there's no doubt that T'leth did have rather advanced technology at the time of its crash; enough that it the aliens on Cydonia should be miles ahead of where they are. The only reasonable explanation is that there were several, near-terminal catastrophes between the time of T'leth's crash and Mars' assault on earth, with the Stellar Empire going through several rises and falls (or perhaps not even having been formed, with the various species which constitute it infighting during this time). On a timeline of tens of millions of years, it is doubtful whether even systemic social engineering could engender almost complete stasis for so long, even if for whatever reason a species was committed to such policy for so long.
Probably only solution is ask authors why this happened. For me only sensible exploitation is that they hit dead end and now only permuting existing technologies. Without real pan galactic civilization we can't say how it will behave. Right now Dioxine run this town, and he has last word about this.
And what you can do with it? Simply fork it. Create your own mode based on PirateZ and change it in way that you think made it better.
This is not that hard, you could simply start with your Chryssalid, copy paste it and start adding new stuff.
This is exactly that I did with Extended, instead of arguing with Warboy to trying change his goals I simply took burden on myself to create greater modding capacities in OpenXcom. And this was repeated by Meridian who start modifying my branch based on his own goals. With our collaboration we made piratez possible.

btw soon I plan add proper invisibility without using LOS hacks. You will be able made unit visible only up to 3 tiles away for solder. But with proper defection you could see him further.

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There is no assault rifle _sufficiently_ better per the Pentagon's perspective than it that it justifies the expense of replacement. That said, there are most definitely better rifles (several American, German and Russian models come to mind).

That said, the Pentagon is most definitely on the look for a next gen assault rifle sufficiently cost and performance effective which would merit such replacement.
My point was that there will be not sufficiently better weapon than M16. Previously where was big replacements when tech switch from semi-auto to full-auto rifles. If they did not do it they would fall behind. Now they can postpone it indefinitely because they will never lose any battle only because they don't switch rifles.

Quote
In light of pending next gen body armour (nanotubes) I doubt it.
This is possible. If this armors could be mass producible then we will say goodbye to M1911 and M16 (and most of his current competitors).
Better armors probably will make renaissance of guns like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_dtC6ZOR3w even if bullet is stopped, released energy will crush bones and internal organs or cause brain concussion.

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2016, 03:06:07 pm »
If Chryssalids were more zerg rushy I think that's the only change that would be needed, when you fly you're oftentimes exposed to gun fire. No smoke or cover.

You'll never fight only Chryssalids so if they can spit or not shouldn't be a huge issue.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2016, 06:20:10 pm »
Well, after all this storm in a glass of water, we're back in the starting point. To sum it up:
- I'm definitely not ruling out adding super-predator Chryssalids at some point (it was written down on my list long before this thread appeared), but not as Star Gods' cohorts. And yes it would be built somewhere along the lines proposed by Surrealistik (which was already done by Hellrazor for his mod, btw, with the exception of invisibility).
- Star Gods' civilisation is in a state of technological stasis, at least on the grandest scale. The main control mechanism is artificial resource scarcity. Eg. Star Gods cannot allow large-scale fusion power, or syntethic Hellerium (which is possible too), because it obsoletes THEIR Hellerium.
- I very much look forward to the new visibility and dynamic lighting developed by Yankes :)

PS.
And oh yes, we definitely need AI to understand min and max range of its weapon (only that much is needed to create hunt patterns of the uber-chryssalids proposed by Surrealistik). Basically, use different attack mode if target is beyond max range or closer than min range (attacks within min range are usually possible too, but why overcomplicate things?).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 06:25:42 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2016, 09:15:35 pm »
If Chryssalids were more zerg rushy I think that's the only change that would be needed, when you fly you're oftentimes exposed to gun fire. No smoke or cover.

You'll never fight only Chryssalids so if they can spit or not shouldn't be a huge issue.

I definitely feel the aggression setting needs to be changed for sure, though I am concerned about Chryssalids beelining into the transport while you're pinned down with RF camping on the first turn, and can't really do anything about it; that's one thing that needs to be accounted for should this be changed.

Smoke does apply to the second level however (unless maybe you're using 2-d explosions), so you can indeed fly and benefit from 'cloud cover' (just don't go pointlessly to Z-8 and you'll be fine).

That said, I don't see 'Alpha Chryssalids' being standard issue until maybe very late in the game, being specific in small numbers to only the biggest concentrations of Church forces.

What Dioxine said sounds good to me.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 09:24:41 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2016, 10:22:45 pm »
I definitely feel the aggression setting needs to be changed for sure, though I am concerned about Chryssalids beelining into the transport while you're pinned down with RF camping on the first turn, and can't really do anything about it; that's one thing that needs to be accounted for should this be changed.

Smoke does apply to the second level however (unless maybe you're using 2-d explosions), so you can indeed fly and benefit from 'cloud cover' (just don't go pointlessly to Z-8 and you'll be fine).

That said, I don't see 'Alpha Chryssalids' being standard issue until maybe very late in the game, being specific in small numbers to only the biggest concentrations of Church forces.

What Dioxine said sounds good to me.
IMO Lids bee-lining to the transport makes sense, lategame transports have roof access, and the AI if it doesn't see your gals is cautous upon approach. The Lids IMO should only beeline if the door or view of the gals is accessible which would never happen before you got the opportunity to let out smoke screens

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2016, 10:32:26 pm »
IMO Lids bee-lining to the transport makes sense, lategame transports have roof access, and the AI if it doesn't see your gals is cautous upon approach. The Lids IMO should only beeline if the door or view of the gals is accessible which would never happen before you got the opportunity to let out smoke screens

Lid rushing would definitely be a problem for early/mid-game craft like the Pachyderm; less of an issue for something like the Bonaventura but that and late game craft shouldn't be the foundation for balancing assumptions.

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2016, 10:37:58 pm »
Lid rushing would definitely be a problem for early/mid-game craft like the Pachyderm; less of an issue for something like the Bonaventura but that and late game craft shouldn't be the foundation for balancing assumptions.
Use of smoke should break line of sight, also reaction fire can stop rushing into your gals. If anything introduction of powerful lids should be for terror missions/ships, and base attack/defense only.

Early/Mid game should not be the time to take on elite units doing terror missions so running away should be always on the table. Like if you're using old carbines but face mercenaries.

Even mid game you can generally get some grav units to fly making nids less of an issue, if they were to become super powerful on the ground.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2016, 10:46:48 pm »
Use of smoke should break line of sight, also reaction fire can stop rushing into your gals. If anything introduction of powerful lids should be for terror missions/ships, and base attack/defense only.

Early/Mid game should not be the time to take on elite units doing terror missions so running away should be always on the table. Like if you're using old carbines but face mercenaries.

Even mid game you can generally get some grav units to fly making nids less of an issue, if they were to become super powerful on the ground.

I mean lids in general.

Alpha Lids would be specific to Terror Ships and things like Cruisers/Battleships/Hideouts and there should probably be only a couple after being introduced Mid game; I don't think they should replace standard Lids until the late game.

Reaction fire would not be a reliable way to stop a Chryssalid from assaulting a Pachy (they open the door, start out at melee range, and melee doesn't trigger RF; you'd have to spam mines or something).

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: Make Chryssalids Great Again
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2016, 11:01:42 pm »
I mean lids in general.

Alpha Lids would be specific to Terror Ships and things like Cruisers/Battleships/Hideouts and there should probably be only a couple after being introduced Mid game; I don't think they should replace standard Lids until the late game.

Reaction fire would not be a reliable way to stop a Chryssalid from assaulting a Pachy (they open the door, start out at melee range, and melee doesn't trigger RF; you'd have to spam mines or something).
IMO IRL if your ship is taking fire, and you're safe inside at the moment most people would run away. Though I don't see an issue with mines if grenades can cause them to be destroyed if it's clear you aren't being assaulted. But still I believe that if you don't have the resources to take on a certain enemy running away should always be an option. 

Course making lids into a really scary terror unit would make things hard since all the civie's would become zeds, dropping score, and if aggression is too high the lids would chase your gals out or convert them. This would make conservative play much tougher since waiting, and time only makes your enemy stronger significantly.

I think a mod add on should be made for making lids tougher to see how people like it, and iron out the bugs from there. TBH I think it'd be interesting to see a kinda of situation where after 3-5 turns all 8-16 civilians turn into zombies, and then try to gank you.

I'd also like to see a mutant police force or civilians with weapons to defend themselves, but I think the engine limits this, I gave civilians weapons once and they don't use it, except for only reaction fire, which can hit your own troops just as easy.