Grenades & Explosives - advice appreciated

[Dioxine]

So. Do you think grenades & other timed explosives are OP? Is this why Meridian is refraining from using them? Surely there are a few things as sure in this game as grenades.
Cutting to the chase, OXCE allows setting a 'dud chance' for any timed explosive. Would a 'dud chance' in 5-10% range help to balance the grenades? Or are they fine as they are?

[legionof1]

IMO grenades as is are well balanced. I do know that i tend to cut back on grenade usage later in a game when i have more high quality precise weapons and more options. Grenades are very much needed as an "oh shit" response since they pack huge punch for weight/space. Most gals are using the majority of weight for primary weapon, armor and supporting items for there role. Not alot of space and weight left to handle unexpected heavy units or big packs. Especially early game where your gals are relatively few in number because of transport size.

I know for certain that i've had the campaign be in a win/lose situation on one grenade several times. Dud potential....not good feeling.

I do have an issue with pre primed grenades being a little too useful. Being able to negate the TU drawback of grenades at the risk of blowing up when downed is not balanced. Outside of reaction fire the gals are rarely at direct risk. Most of the time we are takeing so much care to avoid getting shot at all since any damage is days/weeks/months off the line, that wandering around with armed explosives on the belt is of trivial concern. Sorta insane from a real world perspective.

Most explosives are actually exceptionally reliable we just use so many that the duds add up. Also nobody takes any special note when they work correctly. "Bad news travels fast" sort of phenomenon.

[Blank]

Any chance of having them explode when the timer runs down, even if they're in the inventory? Because that's how I thought it worked way way back. Which opens up new deadman's switches which do only explode when dropped but can't be thrown. I would have once put this suggestion down to fantasy but it's amazing what I've already seen.

[Dioxine]

@legionof1: I do not condone the use of pre-primed grenades (even though it really reduces the first turn chores)... but it's certainly a major balancing factor. w/o pre-priming I lean towards the opinion that grenades are just fine. With pre-priming, I reckon a dud chance of 10% would balance it off. With instant grenades, a dud chance of circa 50% would be needed to make the grenades at least resemble balanced (or 20% dud chance and throw TU cost doubled).

@Blank: this is a hard one. I know the code can be added but some items are exploiting the current mechanics (smoke grenades & stasis grenades on dead-man switches). But if that was somehow managed, the 'timer running down unless the grenade is held in hand' sounds like a very good idea. Would even render 'instant grenades' much less OP, and completely eliminate any unbalancing caused by pre-priming

[ivandogovich]

I don't think they are OP, nor that Meridian refrains from using them.  When he does, he almost always relies on "chaining tactics" to get it further than from the first soldier.  I think the decently high TU cost as is on Timed grenades is fine.  I has nerfed them down from the almost instant solution that they were in vanilla.  As it is, because of the TU cost I use MUCH fewer grenades than I did with vanilla, but then again, my Options are MUCH more varied.  Your instant grenade alternatives (black powders, etc) are very good and go a long way to making up for the grenade nerf.  Even with their limited range they are often potent options.

[Dioxine]

Um, grenades in Piratez haven't been nerfed in any way, they're 100% vanilla (except for Energy cost of throwing). I'm saying Meridian isn't using them since he maybe uses 1 per mission, maybe none at all. I'm using 1-2 each turn. Then again, I'm not using bows, so grenades are my arcing weapon of choice; also I'm using 75%+ crew as assault squads, while Meridian uses 75%+ as snipers, hence maybe he doesn't need grenades . Instant explosives are indispensable too, but you need to be in range.

[AncientSion]

They dont seem OP to me at all. In fact in rarely use them, apart from randomly using Dynamite on high-armour foes to exploit weak bottom armour + high power charges combination.

Also, syberia base seems unbeatable without a substantial amount of high-power explosives, satchel charges (and rpg/rocket). If anything, that speaks volumes about the difficulty of syberia instead of the power of explosives.

[Cristao]

I dont bother using grenades as much as XCom because for some reason the effect is less. HE grenades suck. I might consider using Frag but IMHO it is fairly useless as well. Alien Grenades are overkill against some factions and crap against others. HE packs and Dynamites - varies. Used HE pack vs. Merc and no kill.

I use Willie Petes if it is dark and it supplements my inc shotgun and flares.

[legionof1]

duds on instant grenades would be.....painful. While realistically correct, blackpowder bombs and moltovs are one of the few tools available early that allow for the punch needed to fight anything with even moderate armor or significant numbers. Given that until one gets the bonny built you are outnumbered in nearly every case taking away the first few aoe tools....ouch. Early guns+scrub gals are a pretty bad situation. 50% failure rate on first aoe...also bad. That leaves 6 gals trying to melee down a map. In time of the game you cant afford to replace loses.   

TU increase is reasonable and warranted.

[lusciouspear]

I think grenades are fine without pre-priming... it does make a big difference. My first time trying Sibera base (Gauss tech, Heavy/Def armor) I got annihilated (9/12) because I couldn't kill enough heavies before they killed me and I didn't know about pre-priming. (stupid nukes...) The second attempt, I only lost 1 gal because I basically spammed 12 HEs/Satchels and created a wasteland.

[karadoc]

I don't like the idea of a 'dud chance'. If grenades were to be nerfed, I'd prefer pretty much any other kind of nerf. Here are some possibilities which come to mind.
 * Make them rarer and more expensive.
 * Reduce the damage.
 * Increase the weight.
 * Change how throwing accuracy works, so that it is harder to make them land in the right place (especially for long distance).

I don't have a strong opinion about whether or not they are too powerful, but I just don't like the idea of a dud chance.


I don't pre-prime damaging grenades, because I don't want my soldier to kill them-self on their own grenade if they become unconscious - and I don't want the grenade to blow up all my equipment if the soldier dies. So I only pre-prime some smoke grenades and knock-out grenades. For damaging grenades, I tend to use a grenade relay. (Prime with one soldier, then throw with a different soldier.)

[Dioxine]

duds on instant grenades would be.....painful. While realistically correct, blackpowder bombs and moltovs are one of the few tools available early that allow for the punch needed to fight anything with even moderate armor or significant numbers. Given that until one gets the bonny built you are outnumbered in nearly every case taking away the first few aoe tools....ouch. Early guns+scrub gals are a pretty bad situation. 50% failure rate on first aoe...also bad. That leaves 6 gals trying to melee down a map. In time of the game you cant afford to replace loses.   

When talking about 'instant' I didn't mean the bp bombs & molotovs. These have increased throw times and limited range, which balances them pretty nicely, no dud possibility needed (or indeed possible - only timed explosives and proxy explosives have the 'dud' option accessible; molotovs are basically 1-shot guns). I meant the 'instant grenades' option, and resulting 3x HE pack throw / soldier w/instant detonation on the first turn

[Rince Wind]

I have it turned off, which is the recommended setting for piratez I believe. That one does seem unbalanced, because you know instantly if the enemy survived, and you can shape the terrain and use it on the same turn, without the constraints of bp or stick grenades.

[Cristao]

I have instant grenades turned off on my playthrough.

[Boltgun]

I do not like dud chance, but I recon that soldiers with good reactions should have a chance to avoid the incoming potato. This is not possible without a good rewrite of the grenade timer but I have been thinking of this.

If you throw a grenade with a 0 timer, every soldiers within a range will check for reactions and TU.
If one succeed a 'Grenade!' warning is shown and the timer is set to 1, representing the soldiers running away.

Otherwise I do not find grenades to be OP, neither in vanilla or in piratez.