Author Topic: Bonaventura Variants discussion  (Read 13313 times)

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2016, 09:47:37 pm »
Sentry in hide out defense actually can bite you in the ass quite a bit. Since it will spawn like any other 1x1 unit it can turn up all over and can block in the gals in the barracks who then have to shoot/smash there way out around it.

Offline new_civilian

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 725
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2016, 01:07:13 am »
Sentry in hide out defense actually can bite you in the ass quite a bit. Since it will spawn like any other 1x1 unit it can turn up all over and can block in the gals in the barracks who then have to shoot/smash there way out around it.

Thanks for the warning!

One more idea for a special Bonaventura layout: What about a variant with a big (let's say 3 small or 2 big) HWP loadout?

Offline x60mmx

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2016, 02:51:40 am »
Sounds really cool.  Here are my thoughts.

- I would want to be able to see the battlescape layout/deployment before choosing any of them.  Would this be represented in game?  Would be ideal if I didn't need to alt/tab to a browser for the ufopaedia. 

- Would you be able to mod an existing bonny into a variant for those of us with current games that still use the Bonny?  Perhaps give everyone a single item (Craft Mod Package, etc) that can not be purchased and sells for nothing and is used in tandem with a Bonny to manufacture a variant?

- The gold-crapping craft, do not like.  First, a craft that just craps out gold sounds daft.  Second, if my gals can just take the Bonny around the block for free gold . . . why the hell would they be in the business of dangerous pirating?  Sounds like the total antithesis to a pirate's craft.  Pirates shoud be using their craft to find and take treasure, not hanging buckets on the exhaust pipe to catch free loot.  That's not pirate-y at all.  That being said, I don't care if it makes it into game as I wouldn't touch it.

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2016, 03:30:12 am »
You can always start a quick battle with different crafts to see their layout yourself, in the game ;)

As for upgrading, maybe the stream of progress could be first to fix the Bonny then modding it?

So for us who already have a game and a bonny, we could just upgrade it. There was a change made recently in the master code to allow crafts as manufacturing components, which could be pulled in OXCE+ for this.

Offline x60mmx

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2016, 04:00:56 am »
You can always start a quick battle with different crafts to see their layout yourself, in the game ;)

Certainly workable and I would be ok with that, but not ideal from a player's perspective.  A bit tedious for something that would be a very important decision when starting a new game.  If this is a choice immediately starting a new game, I feel it'd be best incorporated by having Bootypedia pages available before having to make the decision that demonstrated the battlescape layout.

  If that is not possible, starting players off with a regular Bonny plus a single "Craft Mod Package/CMP" (and corresponding Bootypedia pages demonstrating layout) would be great.  Would also let people with ongoing games that still use the Bonny participate without having to resort to hacking their save.  Perhaps make the CMP available for purchase at a price that would keep re-crafting the Bonny from being open to abuse.  That way you could re-purpose the Bonny later on if you don't like your choice, or to better suit your future operations.  If the CMP is available to purchase, perhaps the initial craft weapon could be permanently mounted to avoid abuse.  Piratez campaigns are long enough that I doubt many will do multiple runs to try out the variants.

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2016, 05:12:28 am »
I fully agree that reruns of Piratez are not really something that will be common. However, once you upgrade the Bonny, as far as the game is concerned, it stops being the Bonny, so you can't upgrade it into something else unless you make N*(N-1) manufacturing projects to take any variant and turn it into any other one, or 2N projects, one to turn a Bonny into something and back, either is way too cumbersome..

I do like the idea of being able to change the Bonny throughout the game. Maybe once a game year, a special mission pops that yields the necessary components?

Actually, the solution could be craft modules, if we allow them to overwrite the map that is associated with a given craft. If you need special components for projects that allow you to make the mod + special weapon, you could properly limit the availability, while still allowing variations. Then a Fuego is a Bonny + RedPaintGoesFasta Mod + Magma cannon, etc.. With 1 mission per year giving you the component to make a new mod (and/or weapon), you could acquire different variants and change as the game and your needs evolve.

This would have the advantage of making the Bonny truly special and relevant throughout the game, whereas now, once you get a transporter than can carry more gals, the Bonny becomes much less important.

I think the idea of an evolving Bonny that remains your flagship for the game and evolves with you could be really cool! Especially if the tech combinations enable slight tweaks and refinement of the crafts, instead of just taking another variant from the starting choice to "complete the set".

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2016, 10:27:18 am »
Sounds really cool.  Here are my thoughts.

- I would want to be able to see the battlescape layout/deployment before choosing any of them.  Would this be represented in game?  Would be ideal if I didn't need to alt/tab to a browser for the ufopaedia. 

Dream on. You and I both know ships don't have such detailed floor-by-floor data in the Pedia. Self-defeating. Also there is the QB.

Also, a general answer: you misunderstand. You won't start the game with Bonaventura-class anymore. You will have an Airbus (for your own good, partially... I plan to push the air game a bit further away so you have reasonable time to prepare for retal, and there will be no need to force Panzerfaust into the market from Day 1).

Hacking I won't discuss. All this module bonanza would hurt the uniqeness of the craft. One and only. That's it. Want all 5 variants at once? Well too bad, can't help you with your greed.

Offline x60mmx

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2016, 10:34:56 am »
I would have no intentions trying most of the variants, let alone having more than one.  I know you are generally sharp with people, but no need to be a dick.

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2016, 10:40:37 am »
That was a general answer, not to you personally.

Offline karadoc

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 11:23:30 am »
I'm curious as to how these ships will be made consistent with the story. The current situation is that we start with a Bonaventura. I just assume that we found it, or found the parts for it or something like that in the same way we found the starting base and lab. However, if the game is changed so that we somehow gain one of these ships after the start, there will need to be an explanation for why we can't just get more of them. (eg. if we build one, then why can't we build more? If we buy one, why can't we buy more? etc.) I've got some ideas for how that could be explained - but the ideas I have are a bit contrived.

That's a relatively minor issue... but the Dorado sounds like it might have a more serious implausibility problem. There will need to be an explanation for how the gold is produced, any why we can't just manipulate the ship to make gold whenever we want. (It's clear that the game mechanics don't allow us to land and take off repeatedly without a mission; but in the in-game universe I presume the girls could do that if they wanted to - so the game will need to explain why that wouldn't produce gold.)


From a balance point of view, the general concepts sound decent; and I suppose it's mostly about balancing them through their numbers and layout. But I wonder if we really need 5 options.
As you say, the Fortuna specialises in going after landed ufos and scouting. That sounds valuable, but it's a job that the Deliverator can do pretty well.

El Fuego would go after courier ships and other fast but weak-ish ships. Presumably it will carry a decent number of hands, and so it would be pretty powerful general purpose ship.
Compared to El Fuego, the Bonaventura would be slower, but carry more hands. I guess that means that the layout and capacity of El Fuego would need to be made a limiting factor, so that it isn't an obvious pick over the Bonavenura. ... Which again makes me think of the Deliverator. (For much of the game, I tend to use the Bonavenura when I need a lot of hands or auxiliaries; but use the Deliverator when I need speed.)

Metallo would specialise in being able fight slightly bigger ships more comfortably than the others... like the Kraken or something, but with enough hands to be useable. That sounds good.

Dorado is unique, but weird.


What I'm thinking is that there are essentially 3 key types of challenges for the ships:
  • Fast ships / landings
  • Big ships
  • Big ground missions

These three challenges match up with three key ship properties:
  • Speed
  • Air strength
  • Capacity

To have 5 different ships means that they can't just focus on one of those things with each ship; and so that makes it a lot more difficult for ships to have a unique feel. That's why El Fuego and Fortuna both make me think of the Deliverator. Clearly the ships can be different, but I wonder if there would be a stronger sense of uniqueness if there were fewer options. The Dorado doesn't fit into my categories, so that's nice from a uniqueness point of view, but I'm worried about it creating an implausibility scar on the otherwise nicely crafted universe.


Those are all my thoughts for now.

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2016, 02:01:58 pm »
Oh yes. The uniqueness. Instead of the Bonaventura, you will start with an Airbus in hangar and a derelict Bonaventura in the stores. You'll have to get some basic techs to repair it (at the same time, you will repair it into one of 5 choices).
Valid point with the Deliverator, but El Fuego will have a bit better capacity, better floor plan and better gun loadout, while being slower (probably around 2750 speed). Also the Deliverator takes time to develop.

Offline Thryllth

  • Squaddie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2016, 02:55:28 am »
Well as I have changed my standard X-Com playstyle of "Shoot down all that moves" since shooting down ships lowers the haul after you take out the crew and loot/pillage I would likely go for speed over max number of hands.  During the early game when you have fairly anemic radar coverage and are relying on Pigeons that speed is easily the difference between getting to a landed craft or missing the window by minutes.  General thoughts on each are below.

- Bonaventura (green)
Given that I like the layout of the Bonny I would probably take this if I was doing ok already in terms of landed intercepts but needed something large for pogrom missions.  Quantity has a quality all its own after all and the ability to head to the roof and gain a height advantage is quite nice before you have flying armors.

- El Fuego (red)
As I said above I would probably go with this or the Fortuna primarily because of the speed.  I would have to decide based on the circumstances on whether I needed a fighter/transport type or something slightly slower but with more mileage and a good radar.

- Fortuna (blue)
 I am torn on the use of the Fortuna because circling around on patrol burning expensive fuel is a bad idea unless you gain a very large advantage over using Pigeons.  Perhaps make this completely unarmed and give it either a hyper-wave decoder type radar or use no fuel when anchored like the spy zeps?

- Metallo (black)
I like the idea but this doesn't sound like it would mesh with my play style.  I tend to aggressively dismount using smoke and available cover for the ground pounders while snipers and bow equipped gals head up the stairs.  I have found that if there isn't anyone visible on from the doors putting down smoke then letting the enemy wander around avoids losses due to the one guy who spawned in perfect position to snipe gals coming down the ramp or out the hatch.  While a defensive structure on the ground would be nice most maps have cover of some sort that can be used to cut down LOS to your troops while allowing you to maintain good firing lines with proper positioning.

- Dorado (golden)
This just seems rife for abuse unless the gold despawns when you take off?  I just think it would massively increase your initial income, particularly if you play it safe and simply enter every single mission you can grab the gold on the ground then fly away without expending ammo/hands fighting.  Alternatively having the gold added to the rewards screen to the end of mission review would probably work, particularly if you balance the amount of gold against the size of ship with very small/small giving you a minimal amount and very large/pogrom/base giving a significant reward.

I can see a niche for each type depending on individual play style and the specifics of your campaign.  Having trouble with Pogrom missions?  Metallo or the base Bonny depending on if you prefer defensive or offensive tactics.  Low income giving you trouble?  Dorado could tip the scales into the black.  I love the idea of starting with a flying bus.  I can just see the conversation when the gals decide to go pirate.

"We are to be a fearsome band of sky pirates!"
"But Capn' we only have this bus to fly around with?"
"ARRR! Paint the Jolly Roger on the side and lets get to the plunder!"

Offline Baldri

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 10:25:02 pm »
Bonaventura: Currently I agree, the roof is a nice tactical advance. On the downside there are the relatively exposed exitpoints. I do not use her therefore at all. Right now (just restarted a few minutes ago) I even sold her right at the start for the airbus because of the doors. Well I also wanted to get a feel how it is to start with an airbus. 6 Gals only are quiet interesting at the start.

El Fuego: So basically it is a buffed up Pachyderm. My favourite vessel so far because of the speed. It would render the red truck obsolete.

Fortuna: Is there even a  need for this ship?  Right now using a Jetbike to pin down the UFO's works fine with a Pachyderm. (Legion mentioned this I think and I tried it out). If you would choose the El Fuego instead one should be better of. Unless the Fortuna gets some huge radarrange I guess. I think the current concept of a scouting variant could only work if the pachyderm or the jetbike are getting removed or changed?

Well alltogether I think Jetbike and Pachyderm (as they are now) interferes too much with the two beforementioned vessels.

Metallo: Loving it. I am eager to see a nice layout. My very own fortress in a tactical battles. I will probably use this first. Maybe it will have a watchtower in the center of it for a single crewmember (aka Sniper). Like a crows nest!

Dorado: Naming a golden ship dorado has such a special feel!  I even would try it without the goldbonus because it is golden. If the moneyboost early on is too gamebreaking one could make a new item called gold coin or soemthing like it to balance it out?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 10:27:47 pm by Baldri »

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 10:54:58 pm »
Jetbikes and Pachyderms won't be available that easily. Also, repairing ventura hull would be cheaper than buying a new (sub-par) craft. Especially since a new craft = a new hangar. Also no ventura variant will be as fast as Pachyderm (although El Fuego might come close).

Dorado will be balanced... somehow :). One balancing factor will be that it'll be the heaviest and most thirsty of all (maybe on par with Metallo). Also installed creature comforts will definitely decrease its carrying capacity.

As for HWP capacity, all but Bonaventura will have 1, but that might change yet.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
Re: Bonaventura Variants discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 11:16:14 pm »
Snip
As for HWP capacity, all but Bonaventura will have 1, but that might change yet.

Damnit so much for me trying out the other variants. Twin Parrots to OP to lose.