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Author Topic: The X-Com Files - 2.5: Silent Run  (Read 1278090 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #735 on: December 02, 2016, 01:32:30 am »
So, to sum up:

  • Hardware Store Improvised Weapons gives hammers and such, Ufopedia since the beginning.
    Improvised Weapons + ninjas give oriental weapons, Ufopedia since the beginning. (Or we can make an exception here and unlock Ufopaedia with weapons - after all these aren't exactly the same as historical weapons, they are modernized.)
  • Contacts + Promotions give standard human weapons, Ufopedia since the beginning.
  • Found advanced human weapons give this item's research and Ufopaedia, but not necessarily buying it - requires special contact.
  • Alien tech is alien, research to read, use and produce.

Is this what you are proposing?

As for destroyItem, yes, I did it last week. :)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #736 on: December 02, 2016, 02:00:22 am »
Yeah, pretty much.

I'm of no preference regarding UFOPaedia availability of the oriental weapons. They are modernized, but it's not that hard to find a HEMA or Kendo place that uses them, which presumably the agents that are inclined to use such weapons would already be part of. So should you know about them or not? It doesn't matter, as long as you don't have to research katanas, then tonfas, then etc. but get to buy them (and their article, if you chose to go that way) all at once when the "Oriental Weapons" or "Historic Weapons" project is unlocked.

Can you list multiple techs for "requiresBuy"? That would be the simplest. AK-47 "requiresBuy" Promotions II and Contacts: Arms Dealer, done. Or I guess you can hack it with a 0 cost "BuyBasicRifles" project that depends on those two other techs and is listed as the requirement for the AK47 and other basic guns.

Just looking at the ruleset, I noticed you have a cost (small, but still) for the "BuyAK47" project. Is that necessary? I'd just streamline it and say: If you know the dude that sells the guns (Contacts), and you've got the clearance to buy the guns (Promotions), then you can buy guns, no more research necessary. What are they researching any ways?

Although it's fun to unlock alien or hi-tech fancy weapons one by one because they're special, it's isn't really for basic modern guns. Getting rid of this cost would allow you to unify the projects to clean up the research by just listing the necessary contact and promotion in the "requiresBuy" if possible, or at worst having a general use "BuyBasicRifles", then "BuyBetterRifles" that enable a bunch at a time. Then BlackOps guns either have the "requiresBuy" with Contacts: BlackOps and the specific gun, or a cost 0 "BlackOpsXBuy" project that depend on both.

But yeah, I think you got it by now and I'm just rambling...  ;D

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #737 on: December 02, 2016, 02:09:42 am »
Yeah, pretty much.

Thanks.

I'm of no preference regarding UFOPaedia availability of the oriental weapons. They are modernized, but it's not that hard to find a HEMA or Kendo place that uses them, which presumably the agents that are inclined to use such weapons would already be part of. So should you know about them or not? It doesn't matter, as long as you don't have to research katanas, then tonfas, then etc. but get to buy them (and their article, if you chose to go that way) all at once when the "Oriental Weapons" or "Historic Weapons" project is unlocked.

OK, then I think I'll keep them hidden at first, if only to reduce the number of starting articles.

Can you list multiple techs for "requiresBuy"? That would be the simplest. AK-47 "requiresBuy" Promotions II and Contacts: Arms Dealer, done. Or I guess you can hack it with a 0 cost "BuyBasicRifles" project that depends on those two other techs and is listed as the requirement for the AK47 and other basic guns.

Yes, you can have multiple techs for requiresBuy, or just make a new cost 0 research with these prerequisites and tie buying to this. (This is how I do it, for clarity reasons.) But in case of AK-47 and other "cult" weapons there's the additional condition of knowing arms' dealers and that particular cult; it doesn't make much difference though.

Just looking at the ruleset, I noticed you have a cost (small, but still) for the "BuyAK47" project. Is that necessary? I'd just streamline it and say: If you know the dude that sells the guns (Contacts), and you've got the clearance to buy the guns (Promotions), then you can buy guns, no more research necessary. What are they researching any ways?

This cost is to appease the Great Untolerable Ones, or else the research engine turns to ash and chaos, and things don't unlock correctly.

Although it's fun to unlock alien or hi-tech fancy weapons one by one because they're special, it's isn't really for basic modern guns. Getting rid of this cost would allow you to unify the projects to clean up the research by just listing the necessary contact and promotion in the "requiresBuy" if possible, or at worst having a general use "BuyBasicRifles", then "BuyBetterRifles" that enable a bunch at a time. Then BlackOps guns either have the "requiresBuy" with Contacts: BlackOps and the specific gun, or a cost 0 "BlackOpsXBuy" project that depend on both.

There are many approaches to this, so we can't have everyone happy... So I'll try making myself happy at least. :P And then think how to improve the system.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #738 on: December 02, 2016, 02:58:59 am »
Sounds good! Best of luck with it :D

Offline LuigiWhatif

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #739 on: December 02, 2016, 10:55:12 am »
Which aircraft can use the plasma beam?  I just built some but my Tormentor and Firestorm can't use it.

Offline mrbiasha

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #740 on: December 02, 2016, 07:35:00 pm »
Which aircraft can use the plasma beam?  I just built some but my Tormentor and Firestorm can't use it.

Currently the only craft I have which can use energy weapons is Lightning. The others require more alien electronics which is excruciatingly hard to acquire.

--- posts merged, please don't double-post - Solarius Scorch ---

Well, personally I do not see any need to apply strict logics to X-Com, but if slight overhaul and simplification of research tree would open way to more new and interesting research I'm totally for it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 07:47:04 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #741 on: December 03, 2016, 06:08:19 pm »
On the topic of when and how should weapons like axes and AK47s be available.

1. Let's not delude ourselves. All these weapons there is such heated discussion about can be characterized as 'Useless Shit' (USH).
What are purposes of USH? To arm the enemies with it. Why it should be available to the player? Because we don't treat player like a monkey. Also USH serves a very handy purpose of making interrogations a more unpredictable business.

2. The only value of USH to the player is in unlocking it for unlocking's sake. The tactical value of such weapons is near zero, and if it were otherwise, the XCOM would (and does) have a better equivalent available at a proper point of developement.

3. The player would use USH only in 2 situations: he has a fancy, or it is some out-of-depth USH, like an AK grabbed before Promotion I.
- a fancy can only occur if the player has Just Unlocked and immediately has Access.

So, what is Arthanor's proposition in the light of 1,2,3?
A proposition to spam Ufopedia and possibly the store with heaps of USH available from day 1, or through some asinine project en masse, thus making it truly useless - it will cease to be interrogation fodder, it will cease to be a collectible, and no sane player will fancy to use it, since fancies are one thing, systematically and uselessly hampering yourself is a very different thing.
What will stay is a ton of USH cluttering the Pedia and Store from day one (or hidden behind bulk researches that will forever clutter the research que, so the player will finally research them, but not to collect a collectible, but to finally get rid of that shit, which is a very different feeling, again).

Offline Arthanor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #742 on: December 03, 2016, 07:45:06 pm »
Yeah.. that works in Piratez where the gals are a bunch of wackos escaped from some weird experiment or picked up from the deepest primitive slums, but it makes little sense for any kind of police or para-military organization to need to interrogate people to learn about AK-47 or machetes or axes, or to need to look at a physical one to know what it does. Players keep complaining about it because it is jarring and not fun. Maybe making USH useful is nice/fun for you, but keeping it truly useless and non-obtrusive is much better for the player.

This is also very setting dependent. One can get excited in Piratez when the gals pick up an AK-47 and "figure it out" because they're making progress from the cavegals you start with by rediscovering all the weapons of history in a post-apocalyptic world (especially since you have written the description in such a way that they're a reward in themselves for how enjoyable they are to read, regardless of weapon utility). In XCom or XCom files? Nope, it just makes you feel like you're in charge of the most retarded, crippled organization 20th century Earth could possibly put together to investigate/fight aliens. XCom is about 20th century people discovering new alien stuff, not rediscovering 20th century weapons that are currently in use and not at all forgotten (and where description have to be much more sanitized given the institutional/military setting unlike in Piratez, so there's much less potential for cool descriptions being the actual reward). As such, your use #2 doesn't work in XCF, or maybe it does for you, but it is unpleasant to many players, enough that it is probably the most recurring complain about the mod (regardless of if the mention is of either AK-47, axes, hammers, etc. They're all USH).

Use #1 and #3 are very true and it is nice for the setting that rebels and cults are armed with AK-47, machetes and axes. I certainly wouldn't exchange that for everyone being armed with a "Rifle". It's also nice that, should you fancy having a Japanese katana warrior, a Russian AK-47 dude or something, you can. But that's it for the value of USH. As such, the mechanic I am proposing gets rid of #2 because it doesn't fit while to enable #1 and #3 in as non-obtrusive a manner as possible.

or hidden behind bulk researches that will forever clutter the research que, so the player will finally research them, but not to collect a collectible, but to finally get rid of that shit, which is a very different feeling, again.

Yeah, discovering boring stuff is boring. I totally agree. If you think discovering 20 at a time still isn't exciting, how is discovering them one by one more exciting? I can tell you as a player of XCF, and others have said it as well: It is even more boring to discover the 20th useless item than it is the first one. It's even more "Oh! Come on!" and eye rolling worthy. So let's do away with the "achievement"-style accomplishment of "discovering" what an AK-47 is in the 20th century, discover all the USH at once and then move on to discovering actually interesting stuff.

You want to clutter interrogations so people don't get all the important bits too quickly? Have some text about whatever cult so the cultists can ramble on about that after their interrogation. The "Notable Cultists" results are an awesome example. You didn't get anything weapon-wise, but you learn a little bit about stuff, and the "Interpol notified" line makes you feel useful even though it's just a couple points because it feels like you are helping fighting crime/the cults. I'll take that over machetes/katanas/etc. any time! Then it feels like you're learning and progressing in your investigation of the cult, while enjoying something creative in the awesome setting that Solar created. I'd love to know even more about all the crazy cults and their backstory and every bit of into is enjoyable because it's like reading a page of a novel, or from 40k codex before they got all crazy. Learning about an intelligently designed, creative and new setting is cool. Learning about AK-47 and axes when playing a 20th century organization just plain isn't.

Furthermore, in XCF, most of the USH research comes from the actual items being researched, not from interrogations, so neither the "cluttering the research list" argument nor the "delaying interrogations" argument really work. I'm suggesting a few projects to unlock all of the USH at once. The current state is that every weapon you bring back from a mission shows up in the research list as a thing to be researched and stays there cluttering the research project list until you finally give in and dedicated a scientist to research machetes and another one for axes so you don't have to see them in the list anymore (and just in case not researching the machete will prevent you from inventing the "Machete of plant slaughtering" that is needed to win against the Treemen, or something like that, because who knows what Solarius came up with and you better cover everything. Or you peak at the techtree and realize it doesn't lead anywhere, but still do it because after 3 years of in game time, it's about time you got rid of that stupid project). Good that you bring this cluttering up, because that's another argument in favour of my fix (1-2, maybe 3-4 projects if you were to do the same for general use pistols and rifles, instead of one per item cluttering the research list).

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #743 on: December 03, 2016, 09:59:54 pm »
*grabs popcorn*

Offline Ragshak

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #744 on: December 03, 2016, 10:28:30 pm »
Actually I use some USH like Katanas - that feel when you slash your enemy! :P That sword is quite potent for killing Swarmids (...those red mosiquitos).

I would really like to give a try and grab some avaible weapons (Luger/Tommy/Double Shotgun/Revolver) BUT there is no time early game to waste on such garbage reasearch and their stats compared to other weapons are also garbage. Garbage reasearch for items with garbage stats :P I don't want to research those items. I want to grab them from dead enemy and be able to JUST check item stats in UFOpedia.


Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #745 on: December 03, 2016, 10:30:08 pm »
Yes, it would be best if the Ufopedia entry got unlocked right after you acquire the item. But it's not possible, so let's move on.

Offline Ragshak

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #746 on: December 03, 2016, 10:44:25 pm »
Yes, it would be best if the Ufopedia entry got unlocked right after you acquire the item. But it's not possible, so let's move on.

Can you set reasearch time needed for USH weapons to 1 hour while using only 1 Scientist?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #747 on: December 03, 2016, 10:53:28 pm »
Can you set reasearch time needed for USH weapons to 1 hour while using only 1 Scientist?

No, it has to be whole day.
Actually, you can even have a cost 0, and the research will be done at midnight, even if you don't put any scientists there - but you still need to start the project manually.

EDIT:
Here's proof I'm actually doing something:

CURSE OF THE DARK LAGOON


Soon in theatres!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 03:16:04 am by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #748 on: December 04, 2016, 03:18:23 am »
It's no longer a collectible if you discover it all in bulk, regardless if you found the item or not. So my idea boils down to making USH collectibles, thus a prize in itself. Bulk research on the other hand holds no interest to me as a player, since I simply wouldn't research it - convenience makes it boring, I didn't win it by myself so I don't feel anything about it.

Also don't say 'it works in Piratez' since that has nothing to do. In Piratez, you need to research all USH to get neccesary wide knowledge of existing stuff before moving on. In XCF, it makes no sense and research is more about procurement and writing down a standarized manual.

Offline Dreamsicle

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.4.2 alpha: Going Postal
« Reply #749 on: December 04, 2016, 04:20:48 am »
Hmm, from my perspective I just feel that many of the USH in XCF feels too "mundane" to be a collectible. If it was stuff like High Frequency Blades, Swordchucks (if you're open to it Solarius) WA2000s, G11s or even an AN-94, I would agree with that sentiment, but AK-47's and axes feel too ho-hum especially in the XCF setting. Of course the cults were armed with that, other players might feel it unrealistic that they get access to such weaponry.