Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[Juku121]

I don't think it's fine, because of two reasons. First, alloy ammo becomes obsolete long before it's available in quantity, perhaps excepting market-bought rounds from M.A.G.M.A. Although those also cost an arm and a leg, but I suppose frugal use will last you for a while. And second, alloy use is inconsistent, not only between armour/aircraft and ammo, but also between different types of ammo.

26+ rounds of big bad HMG ammo vs 6 magnum rounds for a revolver or 11 tiny pistol bullets vs 1/4 of torso+joints protection or 1/6 of a full-body riot suit. It's the same issue that was discussed here. Realistically, a set of armour plates - never mind a full-body suit - should take at least two-three orders of magnitude less more alloys to make than even the biggest round you can fire from a rifle without knocking yourself out.

And even discarding realism, it doesn't strike me as conducive to good gameplay to have one-off items like armours cost peanuts compared to consumables. It's the same thing as all the horribly inflated prices in many CRPGs that make players ignore most store-bought items altogether. I don't really know why developers continue doing that time after time. Because of tradition?

Anyway, back on topic, neither do I see any benefit in making a small, dinky pistol round cost less than half the materials needed for a HMG bullet ten times the size and something like 3-4 times the damage.



At the very least, bullet costs should be more consistent between different guns. Alloy availability is already an enormous hurdle that makes you use your stash with great deliberation.

[Mathel]

Realistically, a set of armour plates - never mind a full-body suit - should take at least two-three orders of magnitude less more alloys to make than even the biggest round you can fire from a rifle without knocking yourself out.

A correction.

[Chuckebaby]

Is this vanilla X-Com Files? This doesn't seem familiar at all, and I don't think hybrids ever use napalm grenades either.

Yes Vanilla, maybe mistaken, not Napalm but there's definitely fire. They are also all equipped with black ops guns/ammo.

[Juku121]

The only 'wooden fort' that comes to mind is this, and it has no hybrids at all. Can you elaborate?

Edit: Okay, there is a fake UFO that recycles this structure and has hybrids. They don't really have 'all' BO weapons, maybe half. Something like under 1/5 do have incendiary grenades. I'd be more worried about the fact that they all have some sort of grenade, most of which kill and not just set your men on fire. Oh, and the RPGs and giant floating laser tanks.

It's a somewhat rare mission, though.


Also, I'm not sure why the Hybrids and Apoc guys share this structure, never mind why they've suddenly decided to ditch their own arsenal and become BO customers.

[Nerro]

Regarding the tritanium ammo, I've had the same experience.
By the time I had enough alloy to mass manufacture it, I had also reach the point where I could mass manufacture laser weapon ammo.
I only really manufactured .44 and tactical sniper ammo with it.

Maybe some magazine could be produce in multiple units (1 tritanium for 2 rifle magazine for example).

[psavola]

I don't think it's fine, because of two reasons.

I certainly agree that the number of alien alloys for manufactoring does not appear to be balanced on the whole at least from the realism POV - comparing for example an agent body armor and a hand-gun clip. However, I would not prefer to "fix" the lack of balance by multiplying by 5-10x the current cost of body armors etc. because the game difficult enough at that point already (and you would further need to reflect this to crafts, etc). And in a similar fashion, decreasing the clip cost could be tricky and I wonder if it would still change anything. I doubt I would manufacture a lot of alloy clips even if you could get 5 clips for 1 alloy. Maybe for some select situations.

[nicedayright]

Just from a perspective of mass, the amount of metal you need to fully armor an adult human would make you a *lot* of cartridges.

From a gameplay perspective it makes some things actually worse than useless. Consider that you can make tritanium ammo for your scout drones at a cost of 4 alloys per clip. As in, a whole armor set gone down range and you probably wont even fire it all.

I know we don't like comparison to other mods, especially when they've got such wildly different tones, but I can't help but think the ammo mass production method from Piratez should be considered. It makes more sense to order your ammo in batches where each crafting result is between five and ten clips depending on the caliber. One alloy for ten pistol mags would make it a lot more viable economically, and you could adjust the calculus for the other types of ammo.



I'd also argue to switch wholesale to mass production for *all* craftable ammo types just for the sake of playability, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[Juku121]

@psavola: Would you not manufacture the alloy ammo because you have better uses for the alloys, because the alloy ammo sucks by the time you get it, because manufacturing is a pain, something else?

I for one would certainly manufacture the heck out of alloy ammo if I could do that without completely crippling my alloy economy and there was a source of sufficient alloys in the relevant time frame - which in my experience tends to be more around or right before the invasion, not a year after.


And even if not, it would seem more prudent to give those who wish a viable - even if not optimal - path to an efficient alloy-armed force, instead of everybody just writing it off altogether.



Last I played, I at least unified the alloy costs so it took 8 alloys for an HMG box and 1 alloy for 3 small pistol mags. It was still horribly inefficient, but at least made a little more sense. And I was continuing a game from before Tritanium Matrixes were a thing, so alloys were kinda available.



Edit: Mass production has the downside of complicating the UI as to the exact number of what you're manufacturing. I regularly produced 1000 grenades, or 1000 clips, or 70 suits of armour using mouse wheel scrolling. Then again, I'm weird and have a high tolerance for micromanagement.

[Solarius Scorch]

Thanks for all the opinions. I will think about whether I should focus on giving the player more opportunities to capture some tritanium ammo or give you more clips per tritanium unit. Or maybe nothing.

[theophilos]

Where do you get "ninja scroll " item? And is the scroll of secrets of the dossier  ninja guy only useful to sell, it has no tech

[Solarius Scorch]

Where do you get "ninja scroll " item?

In some bigger Black Lotus places, including their HQ.

And is the scroll of secrets of the dossier  ninja guy only useful to sell, it has no tech

What the heck dude? It can be researched.

[theophilos]

My apologies, when I middle clicked on it nothing came up

But I see now it is reseearchable after get the ninja scroll researched first , in order to then research the secret scroll

[Chuckebaby]

The only 'wooden fort' that comes to mind is this, and it has no hybrids at all. Can you elaborate?

Edit: Okay, there is a fake UFO that recycles this structure and has hybrids. They don't really have 'all' BO weapons, maybe half. Something like under 1/5 do have incendiary grenades. I'd be more worried about the fact that they all have some sort of grenade, most of which kill and not just set your men on fire. Oh, and the RPGs and giant floating laser tanks.

It's a somewhat rare mission, though.


Also, I'm not sure why the Hybrids and Apoc guys share this structure, never mind why they've suddenly decided to ditch their own arsenal and become BO customers.

You were right, it is about half black ops guns/ammo. Also right about Napalm, it is incendiary, I'm still on fire though 

[nicedayright]

Objectively, being on fire is an advantage, as ninja cannot get you if you're on fire.

[Juku121]

Objectively, there are no Hybrid Ninjas (or they're very sneaky ), and they can still shuriken you even if they don't like the flames. And they actually might like the flames.