Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[Juku121]

But we're talking a permanent base, not some UFO that buzzes across the sky to disappear for a month!
Also, MiB bases can start appearing mid-game, they aren't unlocked by some particular research or anything.

Well, the MiB Commanders also have their Strike Ships that do the buzzing.

Perhaps there could be a proactive mission where you dedicate personnel/research to find a Commander outside MiB compounds/crafts, relaxing in his villa or mansion or what have you, and do a snatch'n'grab operation?

Of course, then people start wanting similar missions for Sorcerers of Dagon and EXALT Masters and...

There is one more important thing: regeneration of energy, stun and health*. Ands also psi defence. I believe it to be more impactful than a few points here and there.

Spartans don't really seem to have inferior psi defence, though. They actually kinda over-compensate for their lack of psi skill. Infernals have a little extra, but not massively so.

Spartans also have generally better energy and stun recovery than others. The only thing they lack is overstun reduction. Plus the really special qualities, of course.

The more I look at the Spartans, the more OP they seem.

Yeah. But I am even more concerned with the overall tone of the mod, which such a thing would impact immensely. I just don't know, man.

Well, I'm not seriously proposing this, because even soft time limits aren't well received in general. Although if the aliens are willing to shoot Earth aircraft out of the sky, what's wrong with them doing a little CAS when the monkeys get uppity and interfere with the cow molesting?

No, the entire godamn point of manors is that they are preventable.

The effects of manors can be mitigated, primarily by removing them from the map ASAP and destroying their parent cult. Manors themselves are not preventable.

Which I kinda like. I'm not a fan of the world revolving around what the player does, myself. But obviously there are other viewpoints here.

They appear when your anti-cult activity in the region is insufficient.

Um, how? Is that even technically possible? Linking regional score (or some stand-in thereof) to mission generation, that is.

But I think ignoring them is fine.

😈

There are a couple of ways to mitigate 'mission spam'...

There is also the classic 'roll one mission from among several options' each month, but the mod has deliberately moved away from that in general.

Yeah, I'm aware of such tools. I'm not going to use them, though. They're cheats.

I don't see what makes these cheats. They seem tailored to do specific things, like a sequence of alien missions that only proceed when the previous step succeeded, or guaranteeing some sort of activity happens but it might be a weak background thing instead of a ball-busting mission. Whether the end result is exploitable is up to whoever writes the thing.

Yeah I guess I could, but once you have the cult VIP, what's the point? Just finish them.

Am I the only one who collects handcrafted canes and BL Witches for... research purposes?

[Warface]

No, the entire godamn point of manors is that they are preventable. That's why they were added. They appear when your anti-cult activity in the region is insufficient.

My anti-cult activity in all regions is impeccable. The manors spawned regardless.

Well, it is almost the highest... I certainly wouldn't pick it for a game I don't know very well.

I do not play X-com on anything less than SH. The only thing forcing me down to Genius is intrepid mod makers who never think the game is difficult enough. *cough* Dioxine *cough*

Honestly though; this and xpiratez are great mods. I just think that sometimes they're geared towards min-maxing and rushing strategies that can take a lot of fun out of the game. It isn't that I think they should be easier. I just don't think they should be as punishing against players using realistic and conservative strategies like bounding overwatch and base of fire that are used by modern militaries around the world. It seems like there's nothing mod makers hate more than players taking their time to win a battle.

"Elite soldiers" appearing behind my lines after no more than 120 sec (10 turns) in a firefight with a scummy alien religious cult just isn't realistic at all. I guess the mod maker can decide what's "realistic" but it just makes no sense outside of a forced rush mechanic.

The manor battles are difficult enough without them.

This may all become moot after I get bigger squads with better gear, but 11 manors is just spam. I kill every single mission, so "insufficient" anti-cult activities is not the problem.

[psavola]

This may all become moot after I get bigger squads with better gear, but 11 manors is just spam. I kill every single mission, so "insufficient" anti-cult activities is not the problem.

You did mention your underlying problem:

edit: I should add that I have put off the Cult "Operations" tree and the Osprey up until now, as this is my first playthrough and I tend to hold off on "Affects Progression" techs until I've cleared up to a certain point. I'm well past that point now and should have Ospreys online soon. So I'll be fielding more troops etc. but in the meantime I have no interest in trying to clean up 8+ timed missions with 60+ enemies each. Just ugly blips that will be on my globe for months if not years to come.

In XCF certain things pour down on you if you don't progress quickly. Some others have brought up the same issue (would rather play slowly instead of progressing the research/mission tree). You've chosen a strategy that is unsuitable for XCF or at least makes it excessively difficult, because cults keep expanding when you don't go quickly after the root problem. Maybe in a next campaign you can try a different approach.

[Warface]

Some others have brought up the same issue (would rather play slowly instead of progressing the research/mission tree). You've chosen a strategy that is unsuitable for XCF or at least makes it excessively difficult, because cults keep expanding when you don't go quickly after the root problem.

This is what I mean by min/max and/or rushing strat. There is a ton of stuff to research at this stage of the game, enough that 50+ scientists can't even hope to keep up. Making the "cult operations" a priority means ignoring a massive pile of other research topics. My intent is to research sufficient gear to be able to handle the consequences of "affects game progression" techs. This is not playing slowly. Maybe instead of "affects game progression" it should read "absolutely necessary at the expense of all other techs unless you want the game to take a giant shit on you."

edit: anyway I've cleared 4 "baby" manors and now have 7 at stage 2 or whatever. Like I said I may be leaving them indefinitely, or until much later when I'm OP. What's the highest evolution of a manor? Turrets? Blaster launchers? Psionics? Chrysalids?

edit 2: I still love the mod. I just have a personal distaste for forced rushing of specific techs, min/maxing, punishing of cautious strategies, etc. Also not a fan of techs gated behind rng. But that's another rant.

[psavola]

This is what I mean by min/max and/or rushing strat. There is a ton of stuff to research at this stage of the game, enough that 50+ scientists can't even hope to keep up. Making the "cult operations" a priority means ignoring a massive pile of other research topics. My intent is to research sufficient gear to be able to handle the consequences of "affects game progression" techs. This is not playing slowly. Maybe instead of "affects game progression" it should read "absolutely necessary at the expense of all other techs unless you want the game to take a giant shit on you."

The significant part of this mod is balancing the tradeoffs, especially what you need and can research. Yet you still need to do missions with more risks with 'worse' equipment. That's one of the early-game thrills of the game. The thing is to figure out which risks you should take and which not (for example, attacking cult HQ without Osprey is an absolute no-go without save scumming). I doubt a very conservative play will work.

edit: anyway I've cleared 4 "baby" manors and now have 7 at stage 2 or whatever. Like I said I may be leaving them indefinitely, or until much later when I'm OP. What's the highest evolution of a manor? Turrets? Blaster launchers? Psionics? Chrysalids?

There are only three tiers. On the second, there is only one set of reinforcements starting from turn 5. On the third there, there is a possibility of four waves of reinforcements starting from turn 3. There are also a little bit tougher enemies in the greatest manor, but this is not so significant. Manors also spawn cult mission in the region, and upgrade to the next tier with a certain schedule.

The worst thing is that the greatest manors spawn hunter-killer MIGs if you cross their detection range and shoot down your craft (including your transport craft) if it's not fast enough. None of your early game craft are fast enough. There are bound to be some undetected manors. While minor delay in dealing with manors is acceptable, I would definitely try to get them out of the way before they get to third tier.

[Juku121]

My anti-cult activity in all regions is impeccable. The manors spawned regardless.

As you said yourself, you've delayed dealing with the cults until you can do so on your own terms. Which means you are not seeing a bunch of higher-tier cult activity because your intel isn't working on it, and the consequences are manifesting themselves as manors (for now).

"Elite soldiers" appearing behind my lines after no more than 120 sec (10 turns) in a firefight with a scummy alien religious cult just isn't realistic at all. I guess the mod maker can decide what's "realistic" but it just makes no sense outside of a forced rush mechanic.

I don't think there's anything 'rush' about the reinforcements as most of the time you cannot win the battle before they show up. Quite the converse, you're supposed to find defensible positions to weather the storm.

For what it's worth, I've also seen streamers dally around like idiots and still beat at least tier 2 reinforcements with ease. I was definitely rooting for the cultists when I watched that.

There is a ton of stuff to research at this stage of the game, enough that 50+ scientists can't even hope to keep up. Making the "cult operations" a priority means ignoring a massive pile of other research topics.

You choose your priorities, and then deal with the consequences of that choice. Manors won't end the game for you unless you really mismanage the rest. And the manorpocalypse used to be worse than it is now.

Your focus should be on promotion research, which is emphasised in the pedia articles, and dealing with the cults is expressly mentioned as a priority.

My intent is to research sufficient gear to be able to handle the consequences of "affects game progression" techs. This is not playing slowly.

"I will research until I'm ready" is pretty much textbook turtling.

What's the highest evolution of a manor? Turrets? Blaster launchers? Psionics? Chrysalids?

Tier 3, 'greatest'. The only big differences are that there are now three reinforcement waves, and some more higher-tier cultists pitch in. Not too different from tier 2 IMO.

That, and now there are fighter jets coming after your craft that fly nearby. And more score loss from them existing in the first place.


Well, they can also upgrade a bit beyond that, and turn into the outpost of a related, more sinister faction. The power level of these is something like, hmm, TFTD Gillmen? Might have a few isolated turrets, lots of reinforcements with some aliens or alien-ish enemies mixed in. Nothing as bad as Chryssalids or Blaster launchers. IMO, these are some pretty interesting battles, actually.

[Solarius Scorch]

Sorry, now I remember that manors were supposed to be dependant on successful cult missions, but never managed to get it working. So they're just random.

Nevertheless, I think the entire issue is severely overblown. If you stall, accept the consequences. If you don't, you are unlikely to be swamped.

I am not a fan of putting too much pressure on the player either, but this is how the mod is designed and I can't do much, short of scrapping the whole mission system and rebuilding from scratch. And I don't think it's so bad as is.

[psavola]

Nevertheless, I think the entire issue is severely overblown. If you stall the mod stalls you, accept the consequences.

Fixed that for you.

[Warface]

Nevertheless, I think the entire issue is severely overblown.

I may have overstated my point, but I still agree with myself

If you stall, accept the consequences. If you don't, you are unlikely to be swamped.

I think my overall complaint is the confluence of the number of missions and the reinforcements. If not for the reinforcements, I would be able to clear the remaining 7 manors without pulling my hair out.

And I don't think it's so bad as is.

No, it isn't that bad, just a bug/feature that can get out of hand and ruin an otherwise perfectly pragmatic and (successful) game.

Fixed that for you.

I waited a while to do the "operations" research, and haven't had the chance to see how rng treats me here. So part of it is my fault. 11 manors just seems excessive when I've been wiping out all other cult activity. And the "elite soldier" reinforcements within seconds of the battle starting ruin my "suspension of disbelief." Just a nuisance of a mechanic that feels forced.

[Warface]

Sorry, now I remember that manors were supposed to be dependant on successful cult missions, but never managed to get it working. So they're just random.

Nevertheless, I think the entire issue is severely overblown. If you stall, accept the consequences. If you don't, you are unlikely to be swamped.

I am not a fan of putting too much pressure on the player either, but this is how the mod is designed and I can't do much, short of scrapping the whole mission system and rebuilding from scratch. And I don't think it's so bad as is.

I guess this highlights the procedural way in which an x-com game progresses.

Anyway I'm almost done with a Black Lotus manor after a little reloading to get an optimal starting position. Considering they're the worst of the bunch and I used a sub-par team for the assault, I should be able to clear the other six. Before they get bigger? Idk.

[psavola]

I'm curious if someone has figured out a reliable way to deal with Syndicate HQ mission especially with higher difficulties. The place is literally crowded, and at least if you get a bad spawn location (a corner would be nice..) or tough enemies close by, you seem to be very easily screwed. I suppose the mission would be on the more difficult side even if you weren't restricted to Kevlar Vests and unarmored dogs.

I think I have previously used a 'throw around a lot of pre-primed hi-ex, go back upstairs behind the doors' strategy, but even this doesn't seem to cut it if you get a lot of nasty spawns (minotaurs, CEOs, some supersoldiers) nearby so that they'll have enough TUs and health to swarm you regardless.

[Juku121]

Hmm, do flames work to make them go the long way? Or just to panic them to give you more time. Mine the lifts and bark-ambush whoever makes it to the top? The minotaurs and supersoldiers are kinda beefy, though.

[psavola]

I have never really used flame as a crowd control tool. I doubt it would work because you spawn on two locations which each have four corridors (except if at least one lift is in a corner) so there are eight ways the enemies can come at you. There's seems to be way too much to manage. Also for the same reason (there are 2*4 = 8 doors in the lifts), you cannot really use dogs' reaction barking to stop the enemies everywhere, because you really don't have room for more than 2-3, at most 4, dogs when you get on the mission. (And reaction barking is also not reliable when multiple enemies come at you, because a dog might exhaust its TUs by barking at the first enemy, and after that more come at you.)

I think I found a strategy that could help in general. The challenge is that if you have RNG where there are a dozen or even more enemies which have vision on you if you go down on the lift and open the doors, they are likely to come after you. This might also trigger the aggression of 'snipers' if 'spotters' see you.  Unless you had a good RNG, you can't rely on being able to add smoke behind the lift doors downstairs without being spotted or being shot at. And the more you do downstairs, the less TUs you have left to win the reactions 1 vs 1 check if someone comes upstairs.

So if you get in this situation, this approach might work in SH:

- stay the first turn upstairs; just throw smoke to the lifts (both upstairs/downstairs) and to the four corners upstairs entrance room (-> to increase the cost of enemy movement and reduce enemy sightings when the enemies open the doors)
- position 8 agents in the corners of the upstairs facing toward the middle of the lift with suitable weapons (I used katanas, because I was most worried of minotaurs which take way too many shots otherwise). This way they can see and can do reactions to enemies coming from both directions, not just one. Put the rest in some other relevant location (a few dogs are also ok). Move at least "the overwatch 8" as little as possible, to reserve maximum TUs so that they have much better chance to react than the enemies.
- end the first turn. Likely some enemy will wander upstairs (I got two minotaurs, but katana reaction hits overwhelmed them)
- use sensors / dog sniffs to spot the enemies on turn 2. Likely there are quite a few in the lifts or behind the doors downstairs. You should kill those in the lift (I used katanas/knives), preferably with those agents that won't be put on guard, but still it's 50/50 whether it makes sense to open the doors downstairs or repeat the same reaction tactic as above. I suggest not opening the doors  (especially if you didn't need to kill a 'spotter' in the lift) so that you have still very high TUs on most agents for reactions if needed.
- probably in turn 3 you might expand to kill those close to the doors and throw out hi-explosives to the enemies a bit further off. You might be able take out 20 enemies in one turn.
- continue with melee kills and throwing hi-ex for a couple of turns, then most of the crowds should have been exhausted; you may be able to go into the sweep mode after turn 10 or so.

NB. hi-ex should always be thrown at least roughly 5 squares away; otherwise you risk destroying the cover provided by the lift doors and you may destroy the floor/ceiling so that the enemies can see upstairs. Also, if you need to throw longer distances (15+ squares), use kneel+throw+unkneel. The kneeling angle offers a significantly longer throw range in corridors (at least 5 squares more than when standing) - this came to me as a surprise as well.

[Juku121]

Yeah, incendiaries don't really last there. I was thinking of throwing a 'nade into a lift corner and camping outside the opposite doors, but that doesn't work.

I'd probably try panicking closeby enemies with incendiaries so they waste their turn, but that isn't really a consistent tactic.


Why are you using hi-ex? I'd have thought this was a good place for something like Milkors or Multi-launchers, what with the corridors and all. Not enough killing power?

[psavola]

Why are you using hi-ex? I'd have thought this was a good place for something like Milkors or Multi-launchers, what with the corridors and all. Not enough killing power?

I haven't actually even thought of using those indoors (and outdoors I have been wary of using them, fearing triggering spotter-sniper mechanic), I have supposed they require a higher trajectory (but I suppose it's actually the same or at least similar).

A pre-primed high explosive is very TU-efficient and destructive (depending on the length of the evacuation route, you could even throw even two in a turn) and in such missions as these, you can kill at least half a dozen enemies with one charge. One charge can kill everyone (except tougher ones such as CEO or Minotaur) in a corridor or in a room at the end of short corridor. So, the area effect and damage is significant enough so that you only need to throw one per turn at a given direction to be pretty sure no one will survive in that direction.

I do wonder a bit about also using napalm milkors or napalm grenades in order to cause panic. I suppose that might also produce interesting results, but I wonder a bit about whether the area effect would be big enough to cause sufficient havoc. I suppose these could be most useful against minotaurs or CEOs, ie. ones that you can't even deal with using a single hi-ex.