Re: The X-Com Files - 3.4: Daggers for Hire

[Yankes]

scripts aren't direct culprit, problem was that EVERY item was drawn, even if is on the bottom of the stack or on next page (this cost less but still waste some time).
I already push change that should reduce cost of drawing by 100 times (only things you see are draw once per frame).

[Fiskun1]

It would be interesting if the sponsor countries somehow competed among themselves for dossiers and other materials obtained by our organization.
For example, if we transferred the extracted artifacts to America, then, on the basis of this, it slightly increased our funding. Or sent some gifts (armor, weapons, ammunition, etc.). At the same time, for example, China, which also claimed these artifacts, but did not receive them, reduced its contribution.
In general, I would like to somehow reflect the more active relations between countries among themselves and countries with our organization.

By the way, I did not know that points are also awarded for research ... Are these the same points that are awarded for successfully performed operations, are calculated at the end of each month and make up the success rating of our project or something else?
About the points for research somewhere said in the game itself, did I miss something?

[krautbernd]

It would be interesting if the sponsor countries somehow competed among themselves for dossiers and other materials obtained by our organization.
For example, if we transferred the extracted artifacts to America, then, on the basis of this, it slightly increased our funding. Or sent some gifts (armor, weapons, ammunition, etc.). At the same time, for example, China, which also claimed these artifacts, but did not receive them, reduced its contribution.

In general, I would like to somehow reflect the more active relations between countries among themselves and countries with our organization. Not possible given the current mechanics, and beyond the scope of mod development in general.

By the way, I did not know that points are also awarded for research ... Are these the same points that are awarded for successfully performed operations, are calculated at the end of each month and make up the success rating of our project or something else? About the points for research somewhere said in the game itself, did I miss something?

Yes, research adds to your monthly rating. Point values aren't listed in-game, but you can look them up in the rul.

The Ruleset reference is a good starting point to answer all of these question, as it gives you an overview of how game mechanics work (or rather how and where they are defined).

[Fiskun1]

Not possible given the current mechanics, and beyond the scope of mod development in general.

It's a pity.  I would like to somehow diversify the static nature of donor countries and reflect their interest in X-COM files ...

Yes, research adds to your monthly rating. Point values aren't listed in-game, but you can look them up in the rul.

I think it would be more logical to reflect the points obtained from research in the game itself.
Moreover, they must be indicated as a separate paragraph, so that the player understands how science contributes to the financing of the organization.
In general, research in XCF is probably one of the most delicious pieces of the game. I love to explore and always look forward to the results!
And I hardly force myself to use the middle mouse button to avoid spoilers ...

The Ruleset reference is a good starting point to answer all of these question, as it gives you an overview of how game mechanics work (or rather how and where they are defined).

Thank you, I will definitely check it out, it looks interesting. Although there are many tables 

[krautbernd]

It's a pity.  I would like to somehow diversify the static nature of donor countries and reflect their interest in X-COM files ...

Country ratings depend on alien points (i.e. sucessful missions in that countries borders), not on x-com's. X-COM's points are general and not country specific.

Have you given any thought about how your proposed mechanic would work in-game? You would need to have seperate research projects for every topic for every country. This would clutter up your research and make it pretty much unusuable. If you make them item dependant, you'd have to have seperate items for every country (or sperate manufacturing projects if you try to do it that way).

You don't deal with separate countries in the game. The lore articles make it pretty clear that you deal with the council. The only interest that the countries have are that you minimize the impact that the invasion and cults have inside their own borders. Dealing with countries instead of the council would probably lead to all sorts of diplomatic BS (lore-wise, anyway). Interactions with countries has already been expanded (via the alien base/resume funding mechanic OXCE implemented). I think we should leave it at that.

I think it would be more logical to reflect the points obtained from research in the game itself.
Moreover, they must be indicated as a separate paragraph, so that the player understands how science contributes to the financing of the organization.

Points are already indicated for special projects (those that have an unuasually large impact) - but these are used more as a stand-in for x-com/council relations as far as I can tell.

To avoid misunderstandings - this mechanic is identical to vanilla x-com, which didn't have a seperate points value indicator either. Having an indicator for research points prior to starting it would also kind of spoil the impact that research has (similar to how research times aren't revealed either).

I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you're requesting - a separate point summary at the end of the month for reasearch? Or an indicator as to how many points a research project has prior to starting it? I have already given you my opinion as to why the latter is a bad idea, and I don't quite see the point of the former - points vary from topic to topic, as do research times. The indicator would be kind of pointless (excuse the pun), since it doesn't help in you planning further research projects or as an indicator for how many points you can expect in the coming months. Missions are repeatable - research isn't.

[Fiskun1]

 

Have you given any thought about how your proposed mechanic would work in-game? You would need to have seperate research projects for every topic for every country. This would clutter up your research and make it pretty much unusuable. If you make them item dependant, you'd have to have seperate items for every country (or sperate manufacturing projects if you try to do it that way).

Thank you, this is very interesting!
But, I'm afraid that we do not really understand each other.
I did not say anything about "individual research projects for each country."
I said that there should be competition between countries for the results of X-COM research, which, in turn, should somehow influence their funding. No separate studies are needed; these are ordinary studies in which different countries are interested.

You don't deal with separate countries in the game. The lore articles make it pretty clear that you deal with the council.

This is not so at the same time.
Anything can be written in the articles, but it’s specific countries that finance me, and not the abstract Council, with all due respect to it.
And I just expressed the idea that it would be possible to somehow connect the X-COM studies with the financing of countries, which, of course, are very interested in the results of these studies. And they will compete among themselves on this basis by means of accessible game mechanics - financing of the X-COM project
But if this cannot be done, then it will be so.


P.S. As for research points, I still did not understand what they give (

[krautbernd]

Thank you, this is very interesting!
But, I'm afraid that we do not really understand each other.
I did not say anything about "individual research projects for each country."
I said that there should be competition between countries for the results of X-COM research, which, in turn, should somehow influence their funding. No separate studies are needed; these are ordinary studies in which different countries are interested.

You said "compete for dossiers and materials" - that means you would need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for. That's why a asked if you had given any thought about how this would have to be implemented. I didn't ask you what you dreamed up. You can dream up or wish for anything, but without actually having a concrete idea as to how these would be implemented this is all kind of pointless.

This is not so at the same time.
Anything can be written in the articles, but it’s specific countries that finance me, and not the abstract Council, with all due respect to it.
And I just expressed the idea that it would be possible to somehow connect the X-COM studies with the financing of countries, which, of course, are very interested in the results of these studies. And they will compete among themselves on this basis by means of accessible game mechanics - financing of the X-COM project
But if this cannot be done, then it will be so.

But X-COM deals with and is supervised by the council, and the council was initially setup by the countries funding you.  The council becomes kind of pointless if you also start to deal with separate countries, since this would also have to cut into your relationships with other countries and their funding. At which this all becomes as mess - which is the reason the council was setup in the first place.

Your practically saying "My idea is more important than in-game lore" - which I don't think is a good argument to base requests on. I think at this point the problem is two-fold - it can't be implemented, and according to your reasoning it shouldn't be implemented either.

P.S. As for research points, I still did not understand what they give (

see

Yes, research adds to your monthly rating.

What is it you're having trouble understanding? I thought this was pretty straight-forward?

[Fiskun1]

You said "compete for dossiers and materials" - that means you would need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for. That's why a asked if you had given any thought about how this would have to be implemented. I didn't ask you what you dreamed up. You can dream up or wish for anything, but without actually having a concrete idea as to how these would be implemented this is all kind of pointless.
But X-COM deals with and is supervised by the council, and the council was initially setup by the countries funding you.  The council becomes kind of pointless if you also start to deal with separate countries, since this would also have to cut into your relationships with other countries and their funding. At which this all becomes as mess - which is the reason the council was setup in the first place.

I like your reasoning, you just don’t need to ascribe to me what I did not say and think for me.

“You said "compete for dossiers and materials" - that means you would need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for.”
Not. That doesn’t mean that I need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for.”
That is, we do not need 100 dossiers for each country. These files (or something else) are researched in the usual way.
This means that if, for example, X-COM got a dossier, then both China and America may be interested in these dossiers. And depending on who you give preference to, this country will increase your financing, and the other, on the contrary, will decrease it.
Or something like that.

If logic confuses you, then you can simply compare this with what is happening in our time: how do different countries that officially belong, for example, to the UN, behave.
In any case, they are primarily guided by their own interests. And this, by the way, is a very characteristic feature for our human civilization.

Let's again, thesis.
There is Research - X-Com conducts them
There is Financing - Countries produce it.
All I would like to see is to somehow make the connection between Research and Financing.
It's all.
I do not know if this can be done. And if possible, to what extent, I simply do not know.
I just put forward such an idea.

I have nothing against the Council. Advice is a great idea.
But it does not help to connect Research with Funding. Although ... probably this can be done through the Council. Maybe it would be even more interesting, more intrigue ... Again, given the current reality ...

P.S.
If I understand you correctly, then my monthly rating consists of:
1. Points awarded for completing missions
2. Points awarded for research.

If so, then in the final window of the monthly rating, I would like to see specific numbers:
1. How many points from this rating are for completing missions
2. How many points from this rating are for completed studies

Summary:
I was told that science affects my monthly rating.
I want to understand and see how she does it.

[krautbernd]

“You said "compete for dossiers and materials" - that means you would need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for.”Not. That doesn’t mean that I need a project, manufacturing item or a separate item for every country and item/project you want this implemented for.”
That is, we do not need 100 dossiers for each country. These files (or something else) are researched in the usual way.This means that if, for example, X-COM got a dossier, then both China and America may be interested in these dossiers. And depending on who you give preference to, this country will increase your financing, and the other, on the contrary, will decrease it.
Or something like that.

That means you'd have to have seperate items (or entries in general) if this was to implemented in order to differentiate between countries, unless you're proposing to implement a whole new mechanic as to how research and point allocation is to be handled. Both of these are not inside the scope of this mod, the latter might not even be in the scope of OXCE. This is why I asked as to how this should be implemented. You stating "Or something like that" pretty much illustrates the problem.

Right now you're just proposing what should happen, but you have no idea as to how this should work or be implemented. This is why I asked you take a look at the ruleset reference, among other things.

If logic confuses you, then you can simply compare this with what is happening in our time: how do different countries that officially belong, for example, to the UN, behave.
In any case, they are primarily guided by their own interests. And this, by the way, is a very characteristic feature for our human civilization[...]

But X-COM isn't a country, nor is it "the UN". In-game lore states that X-COM was funded and is overseen by the council and is a project originating in the UN.

Having countries pass over a) the UN and b) the council would not only threaten the entire project, they would also encourage other countries to do the same, essentially hurting themselves in the process. That aside, X-COM is reporting all discoveries to the council already (as evidenced by the fact that you get points for conducting research). You also get point deductions for revealing researched technologies to third parties (M.A.G.M.A.).

Countries deal with X-COM via the council, and the council finances x-com depending on how those countries rate x-com's performance. I simply don't see how your suggestions would fit in lore wise, or what it would actually add to the game that would justify the work that would go into implementing and balancing this. This would make sense if the council and the UN background wasn't a thing, but it's pretty much the basis for this mod.

P.S.
If I understand you correctly, then my monthly rating consists of:
1. Points awarded for completing missions
2. Points awarded for research.

It's not only mission completion, and the final rating (i.e. score) is the sum of your points minus the points the aliens have accrued. See the wiki for details.

If so, then in the final window of the monthly rating, I would like to see specific numbers:
1. How many points from this rating are for completing missions
2. How many points from this rating are for completed studies

Again, what would be the point, seeing how research isn't repeatable and research times & points vary from project to project? You can't make any meaningful decisions based on the summary - by the time you get the report, that research is already over and done with. To make any sense of the point allocation you'd need to get a detailed report listing all the different factors contributing to your monthly score, and you'd probably need a separate window for that, since it wouldn't fit inside the summary screen.

None of this is inside the scope of this mod, something that becomes readily apparent if you actually consult the ruleset reference. It's pointless to request these features on a per-mod basis, since you can't implement with the current mechanics. If you want/need these implemented, request them in the OXCE subforum.

[SparroHawc]

Let me give an example of the sort of thing I think is being asked for.

Dossiers often involve specific territories.  Getting the dossier on, for example, Elias Seppa could specifically increase Finland's contributions, as he is a wanted fugitive there, and X-Com is clearly discovering information that Finland desires.  Researching Daddy Paxton, on the other hand, might decrease the USA's funding - because he has connections in high places there - but also increases the funding for a bunch of other countries slightly who aren't on such good terms with the USA and are interested to find out who is a corrupting influence there.

Countries with looming energy crises could give extra funding for research involving power generation - Elerium, UFO power supplies, etc.  Countries with a history of constant conflict could give extra funding for research involving weapons, nations with space programs would be interested in UFO component research, nations with significant science programs could give extra funding for research involving physics, et cetera, et cetera.  No need to have specific research tasks per country; just a stat for any given research task that specifies what countries would like to see it done.

Of course, this likely isn't possible with how the OXCE engine currently works, since there's no mechanic for getting extra points with specific nations - but I agree that it would be an interesting mechanic with possible interesting repercussions if taken to extremes.  Especially if there was some way to get an indication of what research tasks specific countries wanted/didn't want before starting the task.  To offset UFO activity in a country, for example.

[Fiskun1]

[krautbernd]
Thank you for your opinion, you are a very knowledgeable player and it is interesting to communicate with you!

[SparroHawc]
Thank you, I like your ideas and examples, and rightly so, that is exactly what I wanted to say.
Countries can unite in any structure, for example, the UN, Interpol, X-COM, UNESCO, to finance the fight against global warming, drug trafficking, aliens, pollution of the oceans, etc. but they will always keep their own interests in mind.
In our case, the global, common interest that unites countries is the X-COM project as such.
And, at the same time, each country can have its own private, separate interest related to a particular area of ​​activity of X-COM, for example, dossiers obtained by the organization or alien technology.
This is the “reverse side of the coin”, full of intrigue and ambiguity, which even Ufopedia tells us.

[krautbernd]

Let me give an example of the sort of thing I think is being asked for.

Dossiers often involve specific territories.  Getting the dossier on, for example, Elias Seppa could specifically increase Finland's contributions, as he is a wanted fugitive there, and X-Com is clearly discovering information that Finland desires.  Researching Daddy Paxton, on the other hand, might decrease the USA's funding - because he has connections in high places there - but also increases the funding for a bunch of other countries slightly who aren't on such good terms with the USA and are interested to find out who is a corrupting influence there.

Countries with looming energy crises could give extra funding for research involving power generation - Elerium, UFO power supplies, etc.  Countries with a history of constant conflict could give extra funding for research involving weapons, nations with space programs would be interested in UFO component research, nations with significant science programs could give extra funding for research involving physics, et cetera, et cetera.  No need to have specific research tasks per country; just a stat for any given research task that specifies what countries would like to see it done.

Of course, this likely isn't possible with how the OXCE engine currently works, since there's no mechanic for getting extra points with specific nations - but I agree that it would be an interesting mechanic with possible interesting repercussions if taken to extremes.  Especially if there was some way to get an indication of what research tasks specific countries wanted/didn't want before starting the task.  To offset UFO activity in a country, for example.

Countries can unite in any structure, for example, the UN, Interpol, X-COM, UNESCO, to finance the fight against global warming, drug trafficking, aliens, pollution of the oceans, etc. but they will always keep their own interests in mind.
In our case, the global, common interest that unites countries is the X-COM project as such.
And, at the same time, each country can have its own private, separate interest related to a particular area of ​​activity of X-COM, for example, dossiers obtained by the organization or alien technology.
This is the “reverse side of the coin”, full of intrigue and ambiguity, which even Ufopedia tells us.

To repeat myself here - you are wishing or dreaming about stuff you personally would find interesting, but you're haing trouble realizing/admitting the problems that this would cause.

For one thing, dossiers are random, and you're asking for these to have direct negative consequences that the player has no way of knowing of before completing that research.  This means you would have to create seperate projects for every dossier or research project you'd want to fall under that mechanic. This would also amount to x-com having knowledge of the repercussions before they complete/hand over the dossiers. That means the dossiers would have to be rewritten, since they are - apparently - not directly submitted to interpol anymore. Which also doesn't make much sense, because...:

You are also straight out ignoring that x-com directly reports to the council, and by extension the UN - pretty much every country on earth, which includes research reports, since you're already getting points (and by extension funding) for said research. You are asking to get paid for research twice. Why should any of the countries reward x-com for something they already have access to to via the council? Why should they need to resort to back-door deals - which could easily fall through, hurt their standing with the project and other countries - when they can simply do all this through the council itself?

Also, as far as the dossiers are concerned - almost all of these already mention that interpol has been notified. Why in the world should any country punish x-com for reporting information to an international organization that country is part of and supports? The dossier exclusively concern individuals that have either gone rogue, are outright criminal, connected to cults/aliens and/or threaten international stability. It's more than likely that whichever country might be interested in said individual issued the interpol warrant in the first place.

As far as I can tell you are both under the impression that all of this would have little to no impact on what is already in the game, and would be simple to implement if the mechanics would allow it. That is not the case. A lot of articles would have to be rewritten, research (and probably manufacturing projects as well) would have to be rebalanced, as would funding and points awarded for items, mission completion etc.

You are essentially asking for a complete overhaul of the scoring system. Do you think that this is feasible or worth the effort?

[TheCurse]

have direct negative consequences that the player has no way of knowing of before completing that research.

the -500 for sharing the ammo tech hit me by surprise pretty hard...
(definately not gonna argue about that scoring stuff)

[Bobit]

Tbf the scoring system is pretty shit. Flat score, which gets converted to a random % raise, which has the illusion of being tied to separate countries? No thank you. Every other XCOM-like does scoring differently from the original (see Xenonauts where UFO flyovers directly reduce income per second), because it's shit. But implementing a new system while keeping the former in OpenXCOM (and compatibility with the various rules that interact with it) sounds like a very difficult task, even for Meridian (which btw he would certainly never do).

[krautbernd]

Tbf the scoring system is pretty shit. Flat score, which gets converted to a random % raise, which has the illusion of being tied to separate countries? No thank you. Every other XCOM-like does scoring differently from the original (see Xenonauts where UFO flyovers directly reduce income per second), because it's shit. But implementing a new system while keeping the former in OpenXCOM (and compatibility with the various rules that interact with it) sounds like a very difficult task, even for Meridian (which btw he would certainly never do).

Wiki says that countries actually take alien scores into account for adjusting the funding though:

After the council has made its group decision, the majority of countries will follow the council's lead and adjust their funding. A few countries may consider their situation exceptional, due to very good or bad localised performance by X-COM (the presence of an alien base on their territory, a terror mission that succeeded, etc.).

So I'm not quite sold on the 'illusion of being tied to seperate countries"-part. Not saying it's a perfect system by any account, but I don't think changing it would be worth the effort necessary to do so. It works for the most part, but the impact of certian actions should probably be harsher, monetary wise.