Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[Juku121]

...EXALT Bouncers, namely their night vision. It is too good...

An extra two tiles over most other humans. I suspect you're running into the fact that Enforcers are snipers (and every EXALT enemy is a spotter). This is a known peculiarity of current sniper-spotter mechanics. I complained about it once, but Solarius seems content with this. His mod, his rules.

...if we throw a fragmentation one, then the enemy will kill and the wall will be whole...

From a realism POV, fragmentation grenades aren't particularly good at instantly killing people, especially people with a modicum of armor. Grenade fragments and shrapnel were what (somewhat) modern helmets and body armor were originally meant to be used against.

lethal gas grenades ... M7A3 grenade

That's a tear gas grenade, though?



Some fun, too. Chupacabra Neighbourhood Watch?

[DoomSlayer]

juku121, about the spotter. I have been playing this mod for 3 years, all the mechanics are familiar to me. It is the EXALT Bouncers who have too good night vision.I also thought that I was being discovered by ordinary EXALT soldiers,but this is not the case. This is quietly checked at night, especially in the desert. You get out of the ship, throw out the lights and watch. The following happens: ordinary fighters try to approach you and find out,they do not fire,because they do not "see" you,you are in the dark,you are hidden from them,but the Bouncers are already firing at you, although no one sees you. I was wondering,if I throw a smoke grenade, will they stop firing at me? Nothing like that, these individuals shoot through the smoke as if it does not exist. You can repeat this situation and you will see everything. In general, in the game 2 cults that fight well at night are Red Dawn, with their mind-blowing disguise and infrared night vision, which allows them to fight at night as during the day, without noticing the smoke, and the cult of Dagon, who just see well at night,but the smoke affects them. This seems to push the player to the fact that it is necessary to fight with EXALT and Black Lotus at night,getting a tactical advantage,and with Red Dawn and Dagon-during the day,so as not to be vulnerable at night. But Bouncers break this system. About the M7A3 grenade. If you read about these grenades, you will find out that there are 3 types of these grenades-M7A1,M7A2 and M7A3. A1 and A2 use CN gas,which paralyzes,and A3 uses CS gas,which causes burns on the body, paralysis of the heart,lungs. The lethal dose of CS is 1 minute of being in a gas cloud. I think that paralysis of the heart is very lethal,and 1 minute is very little. Therefore, the M7A3 can be fairly added as a gas weapon(thanks to USA for this).

[DoomSlayer]

juku121, I agree with you that a bulletproof vest and a helmet can protect against grenade fragments, but it depends on what distance.The distance of destruction by F-1 grenade fragments is 200 meters. At a distance of 5 meters, the target is completely hit by shrapnel, which means that even if the bulletproof vest and helmet are not pierced(a miracle will happen), your arms,legs and head will be torn (the front part).I think you overestimate the protective properties of a bulletproof vest and a helmet, modern versions are mainly made to protect against accidental fragments, but not from the explosion of a grenade nearby.I agree that a person may not immediately die from injuries,but what they will be ! In a couple of minutes, the target will die from bleeding from numerous wounds. By the way, this can be implemented in the game. As far as I remember, this is affected by the"wound multiplier" parameter. If it is increased to the desired amount, then we will get 6 fatal wounds per turn, or 8, there is already how to configure it.Therefore, a fragmentation grenade is a terrible and effective weapon.

[Juku121]

It is the EXALT Bouncers who have too good night vision.

11 tiles, your guys and most anyone else human has 9. Night ops gear and Liquidators have 12. This is not the main cause of all this.

I also thought that I was being discovered by ordinary EXALT soldiers,but this is not the case.

The other thing that makes you 'spotted' is hitting an enemy. Yes, snipers don't need a spotter to see you or even to exist. Yes, it's weird and unintuitive. No, I don't think it's going to change, Solarius and ohartenstein, the person responsible for the sniper-spotter code, have made that clear.

...if I throw a smoke grenade, will they stop firing at me?

Smoke is semi-useless now. On top of all the enemies with infravision, choke damage from camping inside for too long, and gating until Promo I, snipers don't care. You get the LoS-less accuracy penalty, but with the amount of fire usually headed your way, it's either hard cover, even harder armour or pain.

In general, in the game 2 cults that fight well at night are Red Dawn, with their mind-blowing disguise and infrared night vision...

Not really. They're much worse during the day. The Red Ops and Pioneers have 2 tiles of extra camo at night and essentially +10 tiles during daytime. And Red Dawn has a grand total of zero units with infravision. But they're all snipers. Yes, even the gopniks.

...the cult of Dagon, who just see well at night,but the smoke affects them.

Dagonites are probably worse to fight in darkness, except that their weaponry is somewhat weaker. Their rank-and-file doesn't really see much better at night (+1 tile for Disciples and Priests), but higher ranks do: Chosen and Sorcerers +6 , Gilldogs +7 and the neo-Gillmen +11. They are not all snipers, though, which is why you think smoke 'affects them'. Smoke affects both Red Dawn and the moisties equally, it's just that most of the latter aren't snipers and can't take a shot anyway.

This seems to push the player to the fact that it is necessary to fight with EXALT and Black Lotus at night,getting a tactical advantage...

The night vision difference between BL and Dagonites isn't so big that throwing flares like candy wouldn't negate that. If throwing ranges were somewhat realistic, and you had to wait for grenade launcher or mortar illumination rounds, you might have a point...

I usually just find the hassle of managing light sources and remembering who is a sniper and who isn't too much trouble. So daytime, hard cover and overwhelming long-range firepower are my go-to choice.

A1 and A2 use CN gas,which paralyzes,and A3 uses CS gas,which causes burns on the body, paralysis of the heart,lungs.

I don't know where you're getting this info from. M7A1 is CN, an older and less useful alternative to CS (because it has more toxic long-term effects and less immediate ones, not so good if you want the rioters 'down now!' and back to being productive citizens afterwards). Both M7A2 and M7A3 are CS. Neither agent causes immediate paralysis or death, unless you manage to stick the recipient into an enclosed space room and flood it with gas, or hit them pretty much directly with the grenade.

The lethal dose of CS is 1 minute of being in a gas cloud.

So all the rioters who've been in a tear gas cloud are dead now? The best I can see is that they've killed some animals with high concentrations, a few prisoners with health issues and long-term exposure, and people in prison vans who pretty much took a direct hit. And it took at least 5-10 minites of inhalation even for rats and guinea pigs. Non-inhalation can be faster, but that's not a gas grenade any more, then.

I think that paralysis of the heart is very lethal...

Source for this one-minute paralysis thing? Sarin is the agent that causes muscle paralysis and fast suffocation.

Therefore, the M7A3 can be fairly added as a gas weapon(thanks to USA for this).

A riot grenade is designed to be non-lethal. While CS/CN may be less 'non-lethal' than advertised, they're still something that's actually seeing constant use, the military trains people using CS, and I'm not aware of great numbers of rioters or ABC trainees dying on the spot.

The distance of destruction by F-1 grenade fragments is 200 meters.

That's the distance where you might be hit by a stray piece of shrapnel. It's not particularly likely, and if you are the one with the grenade, relying on this number is not a particularly bright idea.

At a distance of 5 meters, the target is completely hit by shrapnel, which means that even if the bulletproof vest and helmet are not pierced(a miracle will happen)

Not completely, since the grenade has to spew shrapnel in a sphere, and at five meters, your part of that sphere is not that big. But, yes, five meters is more or less the "get dead" radius for most frag grenades. The vest and helmet will probably be stopping a lot of it, maybe even all that's headed their way. But they don't cover many of the sensitive bits like arms, face or throat.

I think you overestimate the protective properties of a bulletproof vest and a helmet, modern versions are mainly made to protect against accidental fragments, but not from the explosion of a grenade nearby.

Modern body armor is increasingly made to stop small-arms fire. Long-range fragments, too, of course.

But, yes, close-range frag grenades are deadly. Just not a guarantee that everyone in armor is dead or incapacitated immediately afterwards.

I agree that a person may not immediately die from injuries,but what they will be ! In a couple of minutes, the target will die from bleeding from numerous wounds. By the way, this can be implemented in the game.

Indeed, that's a good and pretty 'realistic' idea, as far as game mechanics go.

[DoomSlayer]

Juku121, it turns out interesting. Do these "snipers" initially see your fighters or after the soldier has fired a shot? Or are they just shooting at the place where they were shooting from? For some reason, I always thought that the Red Dawn has infrared vision. If everything is as you say,then my attempt to widely use smoke grenades for the first time failed.They do not make sense,the aliens ignore them(this is normal), dangerous opponents from among humans, too. Use the smoke against ordinary enemies ? It's easier to shoot them. Usually you throw a smoke grenade so that elite opponents don't shoot at you,with their excellent accuracy. About M7A3. I found information about the grenade and gas on the Internet. I don't know about you,but the Russian Internet reports exactly this. Regarding fragmentation grenades. I don't know why the mechanics with a lot of bleeding are not widely used,although it is really very realistic. If we are talking about damage to armored targets in the game, then you can add a tritanium fragmentation grenade-the metal is stronger,the fragments are larger, the penetration is an order of magnitude higher. Although there is a simple tritanium grenade, but its arson of the surface, which is not needed everywhere, makes it a separate type of grenade. You give priority to daylight, but I'm already bored with this. I want to play "special forces". Only at night you don't get shot at from all over the map by the whole crowd. Only at night, snipers can become snipers(well, by 50%), when they are not under a hail of bullets, but sit somewhere far away in the dark,when they are not seen through the entire map(after all,they have not yet added anything with good camouflage(the player does not have a very interesting tactical opportunity), although I asked,a very long time ago, to add a Russian camouflage suit "Kikimora". Only at night you CAN take cover in the first turn without collecting shots from all the enemies on the map(if you are lucky and there is not a crowd of gopnik waiting for you to come around the corner near your ship). In this case, the game becomes much more interesting. Not the standard sitting in the ship until victory, because if you decide to go out, then gifts will immediately arrive, but an interesting tactical deployment, a game from houses,stones, etc. It's really interesting and pleasant. I immediately remember XCOM 2012 , I really like city battles,shootouts at close distances.

[Juku121]

Do these "snipers" initially see your fighters or after the soldier has fired a shot?

After being hit, so there's some wiggle room.

If everything is as you say,then my attempt to widely use smoke grenades for the first time failed.

Yeah, so did mine. I changed the LoS mechanics after that, so only sniper rifles get the 50% reduction, and other weapons have more, 67%+ generally, and reduced 'sniper' values for cultists across the board. They still snipe, but not every single one of them. Not convinced that's a good fix, but, well, the whole sniper-spotter mechanic is really not something every enemy ought to have.

I found information about the grenade and gas on the Internet.

I did as well. Every source, starting with the wiki, stated that M7A2 was CS.

You give priority to daylight, but I'm already bored with this. I want to play "special forces".

That's fine. I'm more interested in seeing the stuff in the mod, since I sort of dislike the tactical balance and don't really have the time to overhaul it anytime soon. And I can't see stuff at night.

Only at night, snipers can become snipers(well, by 50%), when they are not under a hail of bullets, but sit somewhere far away in the dark,when they are not seen through the entire map...

Until they get their first hit/kill, and everyone suddenly knows exactly where they are.

they have not yet added anything with good camouflage

Night ops armor, jumpsuits and Synthsuits give you parity with Red Dawn. Of course, only Synthsuits have actually useful armour values. I once had a mod with black ninja suits that halved night vision ranges or worse, and 'invisible' stealthsuits which replicated what BL Ninjas do, but much better. Didn't protect you from explosives and psi-vision, but bullets, lasers and even plasma were pretty useless.

Only at night you CAN take cover in the first turn without collecting shots from all the enemies on the map(if you are lucky and there is not a crowd of gopnik waiting for you to come around the corner near your ship).

I just run behind the car/van/chopper like a chicken. Doesn't work out all the time. That's where smoke is actually useful, denying LoS and thus reactions. Anyway, there's a mod for the first turn issue.

Not the standard sitting in the ship until victory

Yeah, the game really shines when you have a reason not to turtle. Sanity sort of tries to combat this, as do dead civilians and MiB in those farmer missions. Environmental damage, too, but that's not a widespread thing in this mod.

[Dadimus_Maximus]

Bro fuck Osiron in their well-dressed asses. Their missions are so valuable, but it feels worthless bringing anything above rookie to fight them when you got bastards with RPGs willing to frag themselves in melee range. That said, 10+ Osiron crates > a dragonfly full of rookies.

[anothrgamer1234]

Question: is the new stuff talking about the Illuminati and the Majestic 12 a hint we'll be fighting them at some point? I can imagine that doing so might have undesirable effects on your score given their influence over the Council...unless you can spin it as exposing their crimes to the world or establishing X-COM as a fully independent faction or something.

[Bonakva]

Acid Bolt conceived as a grenade?
I think we should add a "grenade" tag to it. To make it easier to find when rigging a ship

[Juku121]

Maybe these are intended, but the drone fire extinguisher is different from the regular one (produces smoke and not water), the smoke projector is weaker than a smoke grenade, and the bioelectric taser batteries are a really raw deal (three +25% effect shots per Muckstar corpse, which don't exactly grow on trees).

Edit: Wonder what these fellows are up to that requires them to land in the middle of nowhere, sneak into a barn attic and hold conference there? They even have a lookout by the stairs!

They were all soldiers, too... Worktoids' revolution?

[Bonakva]

Guys, how many soldiers on average do you have at your bases?

The personal lights which are turned on by the "L" key de-mask the units during the night?

How far can soldiers see (how many cells) during daylight hours?

[Juku121]

Guys, how many soldiers on average do you have at your bases?

I've never gotten very far in the game, but about 20 humans/hybrids + small numbers of animals/AIs. Maybe ~10+auxiliaries/tanks if it's just a garrison. I usually aim to fill the transports that operate out of that base, plus a little extra and auxiliaries on top of that.

The personal lights which are turned on by the "L" key de-mask the units during the night?

Yes. I don't know the exact mechanics behind it, but it basically makes your units into self-propelled flares. Note that XCF sets most personal lights very low, so the actual effect is either tiny or even nonexistent. Playing with flares and flashlights is more likely to give you away.

How far can soldiers see (how many cells) during daylight hours?

40 tiles.

[Bonakva]

I've never gotten very far in the game, but about 20 humans/hybrids + small numbers of animals/AIs. Maybe ~10+auxiliaries/tanks if it's just a garrison. I usually aim to fill the transports that operate out of that base, plus a little extra and auxiliaries on top of that.

20 people with a constant rotation of sick and sanity? Is that enough for you? I have a minimum of 40 men for strike bases
Imperial Guard style


There is an option to turn off the default lights. I don't like the fact that in the first turn my lemmings immediately with personal lights on. It's kind of silly...

[Juku121]

20 people with a constant rotation of sick and sanity? Is that enough for you?

As I said, I've not made it far enough for sanity-inducing missions to be common. And honestly, I'm cheating a lot, since I largely want to familiarise myself with the mod, not really play it, because I disagree with a lot with Solarius's design and lore decisions. Playing a mission/map once or twice to see how it works is fine, legitimately going through the 20th mission with 30+ beetles, or zombies, or 40+ Red Dawn, or naked infiltration is insane.

Edit: Maybe there should be an insanity meter for players?

There is an option to turn off the default lights.

There is? I only know of the L hotkey, they still start out glowy.

my lemmings

Oh, you play with these guys?

[Leprechaun]

I'm with Juku121 on this. There's a youtube video where the commetator rhapsodises on how brutal the game is, and that having faceless people dying constantly is a feature of the game. I am a soldier and any commander who treated me like that would have to grow eyes in the back of his head.

I also do a certain amount of editing, buffing up the initial collection of soldiers so it's more like an RPG [i.e. most of the initial set survive for the final mission], but pretty much allowing new recruits to go unbuffed. (I call mine Red Shirts, like Star Trek's cannon fodder, instead of Lemmings.) However I do adjust the character generation to not allow cowards (below 30 bravery) or wimps (below 32 strength) on my teams.