Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 1.0.2: Judgement Day  (Read 413176 times)

Offline X-Man

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2970 on: October 19, 2019, 05:25:30 pm »
Why wouldn't it make sense, seeing how the mod uses the normal damage model?

I don't think that damage model 0-200% is normal at all. :P In my opinion, basic damage model of each firearm weapon should be constant - 100%. No less no more. 'Weapon damage' - 'Armor of impacted part of the body' = 'Resulting damage'. I could agree if damage would be dependent from the distance, but this 0-200% looks very strange for me. That's why I'm using TFD damage model mod. :)

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2971 on: October 19, 2019, 05:29:24 pm »
I don't think that damage model 0-200% is normal at all. :P In my opinion, basic damage model of each firearm weapon should be constant - 100%. No less no more. 'Weapon damage' - 'Armor of impacted part of the body' = 'Resulting damage'. I could agree if damage would be dependent from the distance, but this 0-200% looks very strange for me. That's why I'm using TFD damage model mod. :)
What I meant was normal as in "vanilla x-com" and the mod being designed around that. It stands to reason that if you change the overall damage model some things are probably going to break. You might want to check other item defintions as well if your intend is to keep overall progression/weapon balance.

Offline X-Man

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2972 on: October 19, 2019, 05:43:03 pm »
What I meant was normal as in "vanilla x-com" and the mod being designed around that.

I understand it. I've just explained why I'm using that mod  :)
But if we'll back to 'normal' model, napalm grenade still have no significant advance. Lesser damage, lesser blast radius (napalm square 3x3 against 5x5 incendiary)...
Hey, Sol! How about to make radius 7? I want to love smell of napalm in the morning too!  :D

Offline HinterDemGlas

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2973 on: October 19, 2019, 06:54:19 pm »
But if we'll back to 'normal' model, napalm grenade still have no significant advance. Lesser damage, lesser blast radius (napalm square 3x3 against 5x5 incendiary)...
see:
Most likely one is using vanilla fire damage model (5-10damage ignoring armor), while another does proper listed fire damage on top of that.

Offline Mathel

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2974 on: October 20, 2019, 01:18:04 pm »
I don't think that damage model 0-200% is normal at all. :P In my opinion, basic damage model of each firearm weapon should be constant - 100%. No less no more. 'Weapon damage' - 'Armor of impacted part of the body' = 'Resulting damage'. I could agree if damage would be dependent from the distance, but this 0-200% looks very strange for me. That's why I'm using TFD damage model mod. :)

I see the die roll on damage as how well you hit. Let's say you already hit the head. The 0 to 200% is the difference between the bullet going through the hair and the bullet hitting brain through an eye. Both hits to the head, but one only distracting, while the the other instantly lethal.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2975 on: October 20, 2019, 04:08:16 pm »
I'm back! Sorry, it's really hard for me to find the time to sit down and respond to everything properly. It's at least an hour of my time, and I pour my whole free time into modding right now, as I want to finalize 1.0 ASAP. (Well not my whole free time, but the part where I can still count on my  brain to work.)

Solarius, I get the feeling that you're right now existing in some kind of bizarro world where sentences take on some whole new kind of alternative meaning. Why are you trying to imply things I never said?

Well, yeah, looks like a serious misunderstanding problem. I acknowledge that I must have misinterpreted your words, but I swear it was not intentional on my part, and not due to lack of attention. Let's try again.

But I also need to point out that everyone else seems to have understood it exactly the same way as I did, so I don't think the problem is with me...

That random events whose only outcome is punishing the player by substracting points and which can not be avoided, mitigated and have no further consequences (i.e. they are independant of player action regarding their cause and outcome) are a bad idea.

(...)

Well, the thing is, I still can't exactly pinpoint what's so bad about the events. If I understnad correctly, you want them to be something else than they are - to be more interactive. Which would be nice, I can't deny it, but that's not what they are; it's like criticizing X-Com air combat mechanics for not being a combat simulator. Events have a very specific scope and possible effects, and I'm using them to the fullest.

Events are not meant to have a great impact either way. They're there mostly for the fluff, with only some secondary effects on the gameplay. They're not there to give you a win or a loss, but to provide some context, some lore, to flesh out your role as an X-Com Commander. So, what do you mean by, "it's just a click, so it's meaningless"? From this perspective, books in The Elder Scrolls are pointless, since they "only" give you a +1 to some skill, so what's the point in having all those letters and sentences forming whole stories to read? It's enough to click them!

In my opinion random events are a staple for a reason. They help to spice up the otherwise monotonous experience and dynamically create situtions you wouldnt experience otherwise. Even if, while isolated and by themselves, those appear as simple as loss/gain of research, money, score or whatever the game has.

In addition, since it is a new system tacked onto a functional game, bad events are there to counterbalance good events - to make sure the progression and balance stay somewhat the same.

"Bad" simple events, such as gain/loss of 50 points and some fluff, can be used to enhance the atmosphere, and help with worldbuilding. And "cheaply" bloat event list of course. They are not bad per se.
"Good" complex events or event chains, with dependencies on missions that spawn randomly, can be completely missed (or messed up) by players, despite increased workload required to integrate and maintain them.

I'm quoting Ridan because he's spot on. Gameplay mechanics effects are minor, it's mostly for storytelling. In many respects, simply events do it better than missions. That's why I asked for this feature in the first place.

ufo just shot down a van. a fucking van.
not even a chance to redirect that slow thing.
**** covert missions, once and for all. there´s just nothing good coming from that.

Sorry to hear that. But a van is so cheap it doesn't matter, and your people should be fine. The only serious loss would be the gear, if you happened to have something good in it.

Isn't there already a mechanic, where most of the soldiers (~90%) in the "shot down" transport survive and return some time later?

Yes, in XCF the chance to survive is 97%.

There is also a mechanic where you can target your own "plane" to escort it and should it get attacked, the escort is also drawn into combat.

True, though this option probably isn't available at a time when you use vans.

It would, however make sense, if landbound transports were not able to be targetted by Hunter/Killers and if soldiers kept their pre-equipped gear. (Losing any gear just lying around in the transport.)

Maybe, but I can't do it anyway.

lol i was suggesting something like that a while ago.
ye imo it´d be better if destroying a transport would trigger a mission, either base defense style immediate, or just like ufo recovery, except its your craft burning and in pieces...
(i think the 2nd would be better)
there´s gonna be heavy damage (and some crew dead) guaranteed, but at least you get a chance to get some back.
then again, if there´s an ufo shooting a van, won't leave much to recover.

Based on Meridian's input, there is very little chance of having such as feature for a number of reasons.

but apart from game mechanics, this is seriously pissing me off...
like you gotta do a covert mission. but instead of going there as usual and doing the last km of travel undercover, no you stay about a week in some slow ass van around half the world, because someone might see you on arrival. but the aliens figure it out anyway and shoot your ******* van. the skyranger could fit at least 2 vans inside...

imo would be better if aliens dont intercept street vehicles. there´s like a billion around, how do they know anyway... >_>

As explained above, I can't make such a distinction (unless I missed something in the Ruleset Reference).

Solarius did. However, how could one enjoy practising English.. oh sorry! ranting! With absolutely poor situational awareness, would have understood of the situation?

I enjoy a little sparring myself, but this isn't the place for your personal vendettas. Stick to the subject
.
You have already been warned by, I think, all moderators on this forum, so I won't bother to do the same, as you seem to lack self-preservation instinct.

suggestion:
when you get certain armors you have not researched yet (e.g. from processing men exclusively wearing a certain color), you should either be able to research them, or not be able to put them on, since its weird wearing armor but not knowing its stats...

Easier said than done.
Well, it's the same with weapons - you don't have to research most of them to use them. But nobody forces you to.

on a different note, i´m getting picked apart. had 16 guys so tough they just needed to stare at a blaster missile for it to turn back where it came from and a bunch of rookies.
now there´s like 5 of them left and some guys who may or may not have seen combat. the training factory (or base...) just started.
so the idea was to get score by shooting down ufos mostly, so i can ignore a lot of other missions that may cost me some more veterans.
what kind of interceptor do i need to take on anything thats not a battleship (or maybe smaller than large)?

Sorry, I didn't understand this paragraph at all. Please reiterate.

EDIT: and wtf happened with mib? first base was a piece of cake, but since then they´ve seriously teched up... there´s pretty much nothing they do not have...

Yes, their technological means vary a bit.

I remember that I read somewhere that armor buffs and nerfs doesn't affect piloting skills. However I'm not 100% sure.

Right, aircraft pilots don't get bonuses and penalties from the armour. I assume they just wear flight gear, like Arcalane mentioned.

Instead of massing around with the code, I prefer to just make later fighters better overall (cybernetic interface etc.).

well on later tech level it´d be weird you actually need a pilot at all...
with all the alien tech computers and anti grav engines, but still human pilots fly that thing?
i´d imagine that more of an "autopilot, go there" or "fight that thing" level.
using AI units (and maybe plenty of flight control computer upgrades/extensions) could make a nice research tree as well...

AI units can pilot planes now. Because I agree, why wouldn't they?

Maybe I'll think of some special transformation for AI units to boost their stats, the same as humans and hybrids have (not yet released).

The newest release of Piratez hints about what will X-Com Files have as well, such as the already mentioned Freshness system (basically fatigue), random base name generators and... Grenades detonating on your hands if their timer reaches 0.  :'(

I hope this is not used here, as it would make everyone have to rework how grenades have been used in XCOM since forever, which is a shame. Granted, it's more realistic yadda yadda, but it's a game with sci-fi elements too.

I never liked how grenades work in X-Com even as a kid, it's silly that you can just carry them around and they don't explode. I have never used them this way, it feels cheaty as hell. I haven't done anything about this yet, though.

The Freshness thing is already done though, it's a cool feature.

Most likely one is using vanilla fire damage model (5-10damage ignoring armor), while another does proper listed fire damage on top of that.

Precisely.

I don't think that damage model 0-200% is normal at all. :P In my opinion, basic damage model of each firearm weapon should be constant - 100%. No less no more. 'Weapon damage' - 'Armor of impacted part of the body' = 'Resulting damage'. I could agree if damage would be dependent from the distance, but this 0-200% looks very strange for me. That's why I'm using TFD damage model mod. :)

...didja just diss randomness? I'm sure I misunderstood again, this would be way too absurd to even consider.


Offline X-Man

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2976 on: October 20, 2019, 06:13:59 pm »
...didja just diss randomness?

Not really. I just prefer more estimatable battles, and that is about all games, not only X-Com. Maybe it is some kind of a quirk of old chess player like me...  :) Anyway, possibility to enable TFTD damage model suits me and I have nothing to wish more.

My words didn't expect any argue. I'm just thinking about different aspects of the game and asking some questions from time to time. We are who we are - a true fans, who trying to get to the bottom of every detail of beloved creature  :)  Do you agree with me, Mr. Krautbernd?  ;D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 06:56:18 pm by X-Man »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2977 on: October 20, 2019, 06:32:48 pm »
Not really. I just prefer more estimatable battles, and that is about all games, not only X-Com. Maybe it is some kind of a quirk of old chess player like me...  :) Anyway, possibility to enable TFTD damage model suits me and I have nothing to wish more.



 ;D

Offline TheCurse

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2978 on: October 20, 2019, 08:45:27 pm »
wait the soldiers survive being shot down in a transport?
never got to know that...  :o

that other part was just about what interceptor type is strong enough to kill most ufos.

Offline Alex_D

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2979 on: October 21, 2019, 12:53:14 am »
(so it's raining cats and dogs outside)

And I decided to play with the G-11 rifle a bit. I never liked the proportions, so I took the image and reworked it a bit. Added a firing sound just because.
@ Solarius: For your consideration.

Offline Arcalane

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2980 on: October 21, 2019, 12:53:55 pm »
Events are not meant to have a great impact either way. They're there mostly for the fluff, with only some secondary effects on the gameplay. They're not there to give you a win or a loss, but to provide some context, some lore, to flesh out your role as an X-Com Commander. So, what do you mean by, "it's just a click, so it's meaningless"? From this perspective, books in The Elder Scrolls are pointless, since they "only" give you a +1 to some skill, so what's the point in having all those letters and sentences forming whole stories to read? It's enough to click them!

I'm quoting Ridan because he's spot on. Gameplay mechanics effects are minor, it's mostly for storytelling. In many respects, simply events do it better than missions. That's why I asked for this feature in the first place.

I'm reminded of something, then. Those who played the first XCOM remake might remember that there was a news ticker in the Situation Room (the one that showed you an overview of Panic/etc.) that had a rolling stream of comments on world events, colour-coded (grey-blue for neutral, green for good, red for bad).

Imagine, on the top or bottom of the geoscape, a rolling stream of comments ticked up by world missions and general filler, e.g.:
... /// 'CROP CIRCLES' SIGHTED IN MIDWESTERN AMERICA /// ABDUCTION REPORTS SKYROCKET AFTER 'FLOATING LIGHTS' SEEN IN SOUTHEAST CHINA /// FRENCH BEACH-GOERS REPORT SEEING 'FISH MAN' ACCOMPANIED BY 'BLUE-ROBED CULTISTS' /// RUSSIAN GANG VIOLENCE ESCALATES TO RUNNING THREE-WAY GUN BATTLE IN STREETS OF VOLGOGRAD, CASUALTIES UNKNOWN /// POLICE AND UNKNOWN MILITARY PERSONNEL SEEN ENGAGING SWARMS OF GIANT SPIDERS IN CHICAGO STREETS, CIVILIANS SAFELY EVACUATED /// ...

Another similar 'concept' is the Council Requests, where a country would come to you and request something in exchange for something else (e.g. give 10 alien alloys to get a scientist). So if an event comes up, instead of being "you lost points, press OK to continue", some could be "Russia is requesting assistance with personal protection for their military personnel" and if you commit resources then you get a small bonus but if you don't then you get the score penalty or whatever instead.

More engine-side feature requests, I know, but the could probably fit into the same niche without being a popup?



Not really. I just prefer more estimatable battles, and that is about all games, not only X-Com. Maybe it is some kind of a quirk of old chess player like me...  :) Anyway, possibility to enable TFTD damage model suits me and I have nothing to wish more.

My words didn't expect any argue. I'm just thinking about different aspects of the game and asking some questions from time to time. We are who we are - a true fans, who trying to get to the bottom of every detail of beloved creature  :)  Do you agree with me, Mr. Krautbernd?  ;D

Not having those 200% rolls is gonna hurt later, if I remember how tough sectopods could be in vanilla.

And whilst I do hate the variance at times, I can't deny there's a certain energy in seeing a soldier eat half a dozen shots to the face at point blank only to have tiny amounts of health damage and no mortal wounds.



(so it's raining cats and dogs outside)

And I decided to play with the G-11 rifle a bit. I never liked the proportions, so I took the image and reworked it a bit. Added a firing sound just because.
@ Solarius: For your consideration.

Looks pretty good to me, and the G-11 seems like a neat fit for an organization like XCOM. I admit I might be biased; I think caseless weapons don't get enough love/attention.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 01:23:12 pm by Arcalane »

Offline X-Man

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2981 on: October 21, 2019, 01:22:19 pm »
G-11? Strange weapon. I could suppose that melee weapon can deal more damage in the hands of courageous soldier, but how bravery can affect on firepower... Mystery of mysteries  :D

Offline TheCurse

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2982 on: October 21, 2019, 08:40:20 pm »
G-11? Strange weapon. I could suppose that melee weapon can deal more damage in the hands of courageous soldier, but how bravery can affect on firepower... Mystery of mysteries  :D
its probably like the red vehicles of the orcs. it works because they believe in it  ;D
related suggestion:
rusty fork. melee weapon. needs a highly skilled user and a lot of bravery.
but if you happen to take down someone with a rusty fork you get a big bravery bonus via commendation...  :P

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2983 on: October 21, 2019, 09:21:10 pm »
(so it's raining cats and dogs outside)

And I decided to play with the G-11 rifle a bit. I never liked the proportions, so I took the image and reworked it a bit. Added a firing sound just because.
@ Solarius: For your consideration.

Hmm, it looks... rather interesting. I'll check when I can, thanks.

I'm reminded of something, then. Those who played the first XCOM remake might remember that there was a news ticker in the Situation Room (the one that showed you an overview of Panic/etc.) that had a rolling stream of comments on world events, colour-coded (grey-blue for neutral, green for good, red for bad).

Imagine, on the top or bottom of the geoscape, a rolling stream of comments ticked up by world missions and general filler, e.g.:
... /// 'CROP CIRCLES' SIGHTED IN MIDWESTERN AMERICA /// ABDUCTION REPORTS SKYROCKET AFTER 'FLOATING LIGHTS' SEEN IN SOUTHEAST CHINA /// FRENCH BEACH-GOERS REPORT SEEING 'FISH MAN' ACCOMPANIED BY 'BLUE-ROBED CULTISTS' /// RUSSIAN GANG VIOLENCE ESCALATES TO RUNNING THREE-WAY GUN BATTLE IN STREETS OF VOLGOGRAD, CASUALTIES UNKNOWN /// POLICE AND UNKNOWN MILITARY PERSONNEL SEEN ENGAGING SWARMS OF GIANT SPIDERS IN CHICAGO STREETS, CIVILIANS SAFELY EVACUATED /// ...

Agreed, sounds fun.
(Actual design and then implementation would be tricky though...)

Another similar 'concept' is the Council Requests, where a country would come to you and request something in exchange for something else (e.g. give 10 alien alloys to get a scientist). So if an event comes up, instead of being "you lost points, press OK to continue", some could be "Russia is requesting assistance with personal protection for their military personnel" and if you commit resources then you get a small bonus but if you don't then you get the score penalty or whatever instead.

I think Meridian is playing around with something similar.

More engine-side feature requests, I know, but the could probably fit into the same niche without being a popup?

It's really not a good place for such suggestions, better visit the OpenXcom Extended subforum.

G-11? Strange weapon. I could suppose that melee weapon can deal more damage in the hands of courageous soldier, but how bravery can affect on firepower... Mystery of mysteries  :D

It runs on awesomeness.

rusty fork. melee weapon. needs a highly skilled user and a lot of bravery.
but if you happen to take down someone with a rusty fork you get a big bravery bonus via commendation...  :P

So what's next, poo on a stick? :)

Offline Arcalane

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2984 on: October 21, 2019, 09:52:48 pm »
Agreed, sounds fun.
(Actual design and then implementation would be tricky though...)

I think Meridian is playing around with something similar.

It's really not a good place for such suggestions, better visit the OpenXcom Extended subforum.

Yeah, in hindsight I probably should've done that at the time. So, I've made a thread for the ticker if anyone wants to throw in support or thoughts (ways it could be added on to/improved/etc.).