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Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 3.2: The Colors of Sin  (Read 1951533 times)

Offline Thunderwing280

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2865 on: September 29, 2019, 12:10:26 am »
I like more Military Interaction with X-com, it does certainly make it seem more real, maybe add a few more military missions like helping NATO/UN soldiers fight the alien threat, and maybe like MAGMA but early game if you help them out and give them tech they will give you tech in exchange and possibly give them advanced soldiers with early alloy ammo guns and armor.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2866 on: September 30, 2019, 07:22:43 pm »
Yeah, like I said, not elegant at all. If I was confident in my own sprite-tweaking skills I'd do recolours myself, but that wouldn't solve the clutter issue without some major tweaks to OXCE itself.

Actually it's fairly easy to recolour sprites automatically with this tool by Falko:
http://falkooxc2.pythonanywhere.com/spritepalette#
Giving specific instructions is beyond the scope of this thread, so if you need help, please ask in the right place: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,2980.0.html

...excuse me, what? I was just offering some feedback on the idea. It's not a personal attack or an insult, I'm certainly not implying you're under the influence of anything, and I'm not demanding you change it this instant or I'll stop playing XCF or not recommend it to anyone I know ('cause I've already recommended it to a couple people).

(...)

Sorry, but it's a horribly immature recommendation. Will you complain the same way if you get a positive score from an event (which is often the case)? I don't think so.

Anyway, I think the argument "I am being punished unfairly!" is asinine. Who on Earth has ever said that the game is supposed to be "fair"? To make the mod "fair" you'd have to get rid of all randomness, starting with map arrangement (some setups are clearly advantageous to others), alien equipment (these Sectoids had plasma pistols before, now they have heavy plasmas, CHEATERS!), and so on. Let's not imitate Blizzard.

Also, while I need to work more on the presentation, this is a mod about global conspiracies. Feeling like you're in control of anything as a player would mean I did this wrong. The world is supposed to be unfair.

Of course, having said all that, I understand that the game can't be too frustrating to be enjoyable... But let's not lose shit over something silly like 100 points.

All that aside, is the Black Lotus shrine mission still supposed to be popping up after clearing their HQ? I'm not looking forward to dealing with a ninja-infested jungle. Half a mind to pack as many incendiary grenades as possible and just burn it all down to stumps, really.

Yes, some remnants of the Black Lotus still exists in some way (there are other situations where you can find them, like the Assassin Clans). The shrine missions is pretty relaxing though, not hard.

Sorry to interrupt you, guys...  :)
Is this another device from Meridian's artifacts? http://prntscr.com/pc7d0c
I've already saw his crossbow and bow, but this is a new one for me.

No, this one is used by sexy Mutons.

Throwing knives in space? Okay.

They're closer to Predator discs, but yeah.

IIRC though, the latest build doesn't mention which resistances the space suit offers, for what's worth. Or which suits are compatible with space missions (Power armor and little else I think).

Oh, you're completely right. Sorry, will fix ASAP.

Someone should put this in bold words somewhere: Missions are generated at the end of a month. Even if you complete the research that defeats "X" faction, that will only affect the following month and the others, not your current one. Hence why it takes a while for new mission types to appear, and why sometimes you have to deal with missions that shouldn't trigger anymore.

You are right, but:
1) This is no longer the case, as there's a newish option which solves this issue.
2) Even so, this mission is not supposed to be affected by whether you terminated Black Lotus or not.

I like more Military Interaction with X-com, it does certainly make it seem more real, maybe add a few more military missions like helping NATO/UN soldiers fight the alien threat, and maybe like MAGMA but early game if you help them out and give them tech they will give you tech in exchange and possibly give them advanced soldiers with early alloy ammo guns and armor.

THere's at least one such new mission in the upcoming release.

Offline X-Man

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2867 on: September 30, 2019, 08:01:57 pm »
...sexy Mutons.

Sol, what are you doing? You're making a new fetiche for the teen fans' unstable minds and their naughty hands ;D

Offline Arcalane

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2868 on: October 01, 2019, 12:28:04 am »
Sorry, but it's a horribly immature recommendation. Will you complain the same way if you get a positive score from an event (which is often the case)? I don't think so.

Nah, I'd just be confused.

Anyway, I think the argument "I am being punished unfairly!" is asinine. Who on Earth has ever said that the game is supposed to be "fair"? To make the mod "fair" you'd have to get rid of all randomness, starting with map arrangement (some setups are clearly advantageous to others), alien equipment (these Sectoids had plasma pistols before, now they have heavy plasmas, CHEATERS!), and so on. Let's not imitate Blizzard.

Also, while I need to work more on the presentation, this is a mod about global conspiracies. Feeling like you're in control of anything as a player would mean I did this wrong. The world is supposed to be unfair.

Of course, having said all that, I understand that the game can't be too frustrating to be enjoyable... But let's not lose shit over something silly like 100 points.

Nah, escalating difficulty is fine (otherwise you have no challenge), otherwise fair points. There should totally be curveballs, and things you aren't in control of initially, but the trick is finding something that's challenging but doesn't feel like bullshit, you know?

But let's be real-- if you were imitating Activision-Blizzard, you'd be charging us $60 just to download the mod and we'd have to pay $20 for each story arc, nevermind the $10 M.A.G.M.A. DLC or BlackOps Weapons Pack... ;)

Yes, some remnants of the Black Lotus still exists in some way (there are other situations where you can find them, like the Assassin Clans). The shrine missions is pretty relaxing though, not hard.

I figured that there would be remnants of such factions still hiding out even after the main power structure was taken down and noticed it's still tied to Game Progression techs via the , but I wanted to be sure it wasn't a mission generator hiccup.

Offline Bobit

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2869 on: October 01, 2019, 05:57:21 pm »
Sol, RNG in combat is a little more useful because it changes your plan. Whereas victory points lossage tends to just make you lose. A rule of thumb is that the earlier in the game the RNG happens and the more you can pre-plan for it, the fairer it is. Personally I think a little VP RNG would actually be mechanically good for XCOM, as it prevents bean-counting whether you'll make it to the next month. Either way <0.1% of games will be lost by this. It would still be <2% even if it was -1000 points imo, because you tend to lose only after most of your soldiers are dead. Now if there was an RNG chance to lose a base, that would really suck. Then again vanilla practically does that, base defenses are not a fun way to go out.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2870 on: October 01, 2019, 08:45:18 pm »
Sol, what are you doing? You're making a new fetiche for the teen fans' unstable minds and their naughty hands ;D

All the time, man. All the time.

Nah, escalating difficulty is fine (otherwise you have no challenge), otherwise fair points. There should totally be curveballs, and things you aren't in control of initially, but the trick is finding something that's challenging but doesn't feel like bullshit, you know?

Yeah, I know. Not going to pretend all my ideas are great. But I am trying to not make a mod which is truly nasty to the player (as opposed to playfully rough, which is something I would like to make).

But let's be real-- if you were imitating Activision-Blizzard, you'd be charging us $60 just to download the mod and we'd have to pay $20 for each story arc, nevermind the $10 M.A.G.M.A. DLC or BlackOps Weapons Pack... ;)

Yeah, and everyone loses. ;)

I figured that there would be remnants of such factions still hiding out even after the main power structure was taken down and noticed it's still tied to Game Progression techs via the , but I wanted to be sure it wasn't a mission generator hiccup.

Yes, very good instincts, I appreciate it. Fortunately, this time it was a false alarm.

Sol, RNG in combat is a little more useful because it changes your plan. Whereas victory points lossage tends to just make you lose. A rule of thumb is that the earlier in the game the RNG happens and the more you can pre-plan for it, the fairer it is. Personally I think a little VP RNG would actually be mechanically good for XCOM, as it prevents bean-counting whether you'll make it to the next month. Either way <0.1% of games will be lost by this. It would still be <2% even if it was -1000 points imo, because you tend to lose only after most of your soldiers are dead. Now if there was an RNG chance to lose a base, that would really suck. Then again vanilla practically does that, base defenses are not a fun way to go out.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. Maybe I should say it openly: I am not going to make events which would deliberately cripple your campaign, maybe unless it was a series of really bad coincidences.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2871 on: October 02, 2019, 10:13:24 pm »
I could add a new armour :)

In other news, some proofs I've ben working like crazy for the past 2 months.

That new moon terrain looks tasty.

Would you mind if add my two cents regarding commendations and random events?

As far as I can tell these differ from the existing commendation mod in that they add stats and aren't commendations in the usual sense (as in something you'd get a medal for). Plase don't take this the wrong way - I'd love to have XCF-specific commendations - but I'm not particularely fond of them adding/modifying stats and the way they are awarded (or rather the naming/description). Would you consider using a sub-mod for commendations instead of integrating them into the mod (akin to how the geoscape palette is optional)?

I'm also not sure about gaining/losing points directly from random events - right now the player always has a choice or at least a (hypothetical) option to avoid losing points. Random events take that choice away from players. I'd rather see them tied to missions (or event chains, research unlocks etc.) than affecting the player score directly. X-COM is about having ultimate control about the direction of your agency by the decisions you make as a commander. Random events itself are a good addition if you give your players an option to actually react to them or mitigate their consequences - that way they add interactivity and force the player to make decisions concerning that event. Simply adding/deducting points as a totally random action fails to accomplish that.

You've posted the "Old Crop Circles" event as a teaser/example - looking at that I'm not sure what the take away from that is supposed to be. Do I have an option to avoid such events in the future? Why am I being 'punished' for something that was - apparently outside of my control? To me this feels more like something that should happen if the player ignores/fails to get to a crop circle site in time.

Existing mechanics have the player actively invested in the possible outcomes (e.g. you can chose to ignore missions sites, you can win or fail missions). The game - at least at some level - has or wants players to care about mechanics. I'm not sure taking that away is a good idea. This practically amounts to to telling the player that they lost points because of {x} without actually giving the player a reason why they should care about {x} as you are not offering them an option to influence the outcome of those events.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 10:24:30 pm by krautbernd »

Offline HT

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2872 on: October 02, 2019, 10:53:17 pm »
I'm also not sure about gaining/losing points directly from random events - right now the player always has a choice or at least a (hypothetical) option to avoid losing points. Random events take that choice away from players. I'd rather see them tied to missions (or event chains, research unlocks etc.) than affecting the player score directly. X-COM is about having ultimate control about the direction of your agency by the decisions you make as a commander. Random events itself are a good addition if you give your players an option to actually react to them or mitigate their consequences - that way they add interactivity and force the player to make decisions concerning that event. Simply adding/deducting points as a totally random action fails to accomplish that...

I checked some more example events through the Github page, and I can confirm there's order within the chaos. Some random events are... Random, as the name says, but others can be results of your actions (or lack of thereof). For example, delaying to destroy a cult when you had the chance to do so originally had the chance of spawning missions that did lots of damage to your score (as in, spreading misinformation and such to hurt your organization). Now though, there are random events that can spawn that are related to that, which make you lose a bit of score.

By the way Solarius, you did say you were considering to implement rubber bullets for shotguns. What about an equivalent for rifles? Also, what about disposable rocket launchers?  There's one here that would make perfect sense for XCOM to have once you get to max promotion level and have access to military gear:
http://openxcommods.weebly.com/downloads11.html

Offline Vangrimar1

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2873 on: October 03, 2019, 02:30:49 pm »
It's time to introduce rewards. I would suggest two types of awards: military awards (do not give any skills, serve as a sign of merit) and personality traits (give an increase in skills, are given in especially difficult situations). It is perfectly acceptable to receive both types of rewards at the same time in the mission.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2874 on: October 03, 2019, 04:47:45 pm »
It's time to introduce rewards. I would suggest two types of awards: military awards (do not give any skills, serve as a sign of merit) and personality traits (give an increase in skills, are given in especially difficult situations). It is perfectly acceptable to receive both types of rewards at the same time in the mission.
Yeah, I think some of these (stormtrooper for example) would be more fitting as traits than as regular commendations.

Offline Thunderwing280

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2875 on: October 03, 2019, 05:41:55 pm »
How do I equip tanks onto dropships? I'm trying to get a Tank/mass driver that I've reasearched and built onto my craft.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2876 on: October 03, 2019, 05:44:14 pm »
How do I equip tanks onto dropships? I'm trying to get a Tank/mass driver that I've reasearched and built onto my craft.

It's an armor that you equip on an AI Unit soldier.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2877 on: October 03, 2019, 07:24:44 pm »
That new moon terrain looks tasty.

Thanks!
The recolour literally took me two minutes, but then Finnik made some nice hills.

Would you mind if add my two cents regarding commendations and random events?

As far as I can tell these differ from the existing commendation mod in that they add stats and aren't commendations in the usual sense (as in something you'd get a medal for). Plase don't take this the wrong way - I'd love to have XCF-specific commendations - but I'm not particularely fond of them adding/modifying stats and the way they are awarded (or rather the naming/description). Would you consider using a sub-mod for commendations instead of integrating them into the mod (akin to how the geoscape palette is optional)?

Let me explain using a gross exaggeration. Please don't take it as a mockery, I am just trying to illustrate something.

Imagine it's 1993, and Doom is about to be released. And ID Software get a letter like this:

"Dear Mr. Carmack and Mr. Romero,
I really like your new project, it looks fantastic! The graphics are so much better than in your previous game, Wolfenstein 3D. The weapons, the effects, level design, everything is so crispy. I can't wait to play it!
However, I must say I don't like the enemies much. Shooting Nazis was so much fun, why change it? Could you perhaps make Doom with the German soldiers, and release the demons as a separate add-on for those who like this kind of thing? That would be the best way to appease anyone!
I wish all you the best with your project!
- Wolfenfan"

So, to summarize: from a technical point of view it would be quite easy to separate this part of the mod and move it outside. Easier than most such things anyway. But from a design perspective, it's simply ridiculous. This is not how you make games, even as an amateur. The reasons are so painfully obvious that I won't even describe them.

Also, this system has been designed in details years ago, long before there was any hope it would even be possible. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THERE BY DESIGN.

I'm also not sure about gaining/losing points directly from random events - right now the player always has a choice or at least a (hypothetical) option to avoid losing points. Random events take that choice away from players. I'd rather see them tied to missions (or event chains, research unlocks etc.) than affecting the player score directly. X-COM is about having ultimate control about the direction of your agency by the decisions you make as a commander.

OK, now we're straight into bullshit territory. X-Com is and has always been precisely about not having much control. If anything, XCF has been too predictable and too controllable, especially for a game about goddamn world conspiracies. I tried to mix things up by randomizing everything, but many such decisions only served to annoy the player (Syndicate hunting anyone?). Now we have way better tools to achieve that.

Random events itself are a good addition if you give your players an option to actually react to them or mitigate their consequences - that way they add interactivity and force the player to make decisions concerning that event. Simply adding/deducting points as a totally random action fails to accomplish that.

What a boring idea.
I don't want to play chess. I want some excitement in my life. This is supposed to be fun, not an exercise in... well, whatever it is. (The internet calls it "autism", but I really dislike this term.)

You've posted the "Old Crop Circles" event as a teaser/example - looking at that I'm not sure what the take away from that is supposed to be. Do I have an option to avoid such events in the future? Why am I being 'punished' for something that was - apparently outside of my control? To me this feels more like something that should happen if the player ignores/fails to get to a crop circle site in time.

Some of these events are unavoidable. The world around you is unavoidable. As I said, if you had total control over such things, it would be a bad X-Com game. This is not what I want, and I happen to have the last word here.
But then again, most events are preventable by for example shutting down the offending organization, or by research, etc. In fact, many events are specifically designed to harm you if you stall with your progress (especially when doing so is some sort of exploit, like for example not destroying some cult because it's a source of some resource). So it's not uncoupled from player's actions and you're supposed to react to them.

Existing mechanics have the player actively invested in the possible outcomes (e.g. you can chose to ignore missions sites, you can win or fail missions). The game - at least at some level - has or wants players to care about mechanics. I'm not sure taking that away is a good idea. This practically amounts to to telling the player that they lost points because of {x} without actually giving the player a reason why they should care about {x} as you are not offering them an option to influence the outcome of those events.

Gosh, now you're such a drama queen. "Waaah, I lost 50 points, now the game is unplayable!"

Feedback is great. Good feedback is priceless. Your feedback is and has always been very good. But in this case I think you've built some sort of a model of how the game will look like which is not supported by much evidence and likely off. Why not give it a try first? Lots of people play the GitHub (unreleased) version - it's buggy, but perfectly playable. (Will require the latest OXCE, also unreleased but available from Meridian.)

I checked some more example events through the Github page, and I can confirm there's order within the chaos. Some random events are... Random, as the name says, but others can be results of your actions (or lack of thereof). For example, delaying to destroy a cult when you had the chance to do so originally had the chance of spawning missions that did lots of damage to your score (as in, spreading misinformation and such to hurt your organization). Now though, there are random events that can spawn that are related to that, which make you lose a bit of score.

That's all true. I didn't have to write this after all :)

By the way Solarius, you did say you were considering to implement rubber bullets for shotguns. What about an equivalent for rifles? Also, what about disposable rocket launchers?  There's one here that would make perfect sense for XCOM to have once you get to max promotion level and have access to military gear:
http://openxcommods.weebly.com/downloads11.html

I can do that. I'm not sure how it works in real life, though.

It's time to introduce rewards. I would suggest two types of awards: military awards (do not give any skills, serve as a sign of merit) and personality traits (give an increase in skills, are given in especially difficult situations). It is perfectly acceptable to receive both types of rewards at the same time in the mission.

Yeah, I think some of these (stormtrooper for example) would be more fitting as traits than as regular commendations.

Sorry, I have no idea what the difference is between the two.

Whatever it is, the engine supports commendations (and transformations), not whatever else you have in mind, so it's pointless to discuss.


Offline TheCurse

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2878 on: October 04, 2019, 03:27:46 am »
not sure if XCF related (probably not), but i´m having a lot of issues with line of fire while shooting through fences.
basically line of fire exists when shooting through fence, but fence remains block line of fire. also they´re kinda hard to destroy.
IMO it should hardly happen when you shoot through a fence, whats left of it blocks further fire...
(firing anyway almost always won't work, since the bullets just go into fence remains)

Offline LytaRyta

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Re: Re: The X-Com Files - 0.9.9e2: Summertime Lovin'
« Reply #2879 on: October 06, 2019, 12:09:43 pm »
what about *Stalker type, kind of mission ?

"Picnic_at_way" Site mission = investigation, collecting, and researching artefacts, events, anomalies, and penomenons, leaved at abandoned UFO -contact site = "Zone"..

i suggest new kind of character for X-C.F. - Stalkers, as collectors, pathfinders, and veteran"scouts" of locals Zone sites

also few of artifacts of, from Zone:

https://stalker.fandom.com/wiki/Artifacts

https://stalker.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_artifacts

https://stalker.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Artifacts