Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark  (Read 2445731 times)

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1635 on: February 08, 2018, 12:50:03 am »
With some small play ahead testing on this patch, the sectoids and the mutons feel like they have equivalent tanks - except that sectoids have mind control / panic and can see through walls.   It's actually easier for me to fight mutons now than it is sectoid.  It *feels* like Mutons I can wound and take down over time, sectoids I need to alpha if I want any chance.

I can survive a Jan 1999 lab ship with mutons in the dark, I get wiped by the same ship staffed with sectoids.

One possible recommendation that might brind sectoids down to muton level - remove their intelligence stat.  Intelligence or sense, but not both for sectoids.

/edit: Just did a sectoid lab ship - now it just feels like playing Xenonauts.  Anyone alien inside the ship just did nothing but spam PSI or camp the elevator with reaction shots.   
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 08:20:13 am by Starving Poet »

Offline mumble

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1636 on: February 08, 2018, 11:20:30 am »
Alternatively, couldn't sectoids be really lame in terms of reactions and accuracy, acting more like incredibly over-equiped scientists / military officers than troopers? This would make sense, especially with sectoids being higher up in the class hierarchy, and would explain the heavy defensive technology and other abilities, to compensate for lacking cognitive skills of a small, pudgy body. It would be an interesting dynamic, facing enemies who outgun, out Armor out maneuver and out tech xcom in almost every way, both technologically and mentally, but are unfortunately are still outmatched in raw physical ability.

I know this wouldn't be cannon really, but neither is psi shields, and i feel this would give them a bit of a hard counter, abusing the simplely higher stats, while they themselves are horribly over-equiped.

Also, since we have psi shields now, any possibility of infusion of shields on a target psionically, like sectoids on mechtoids in xcom EU? I THINK it would be very interesting to unlock this as an ability, or even face this as a problem, sectoids for instance infusing a weak, temporary version of psi shield on a meat shield chronite soldier, or even shielding a charging chrysalid.  Because nothing would be more terrifying than a sectoid with a pet chrysalid with a psi shield equivalent of combat armor.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1637 on: February 08, 2018, 12:26:31 pm »
OK, thanks for the feedback guys. I will address it soon.
Perhaps the shields are too strong on Sectoids... Or maybe Mutons are too weak. ;) After all they only really got an Accuracy bonus, which is quite modest compared to Sectoid shields.
I don't really want to lower Sectoids' reactions, because it's a canon thing - for example, they make better pilots than Mutons (by X-Com Interceptor). Maybe I should take away psionics from low rank Sectoids? Or buff Mutons, Snakemen and Floaters further? After all, they are scary alien soldiers from a completely different tech level...

Offline mumble

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1638 on: February 08, 2018, 01:45:26 pm »
I don't think it would be a bad idea making mutons a little beefier, but only slightly.

I understand what you say about sectoids being better pilots, but this is really like comparing a newbie in a brand new fighter jet to veterans in ww2 fighter planes. The sheer amount of tech in terms of ui, weapons, shields, and nimble steering are far more impactful than raw "reaction time" when you consider they also have neural uplinks which dramatically increases reaction time effectively.

Where as reactions on ground is much more than how quickly neurons can fire, it's about handeye coordination, muscle memory, and practice of instinctive reactions, which i sense sectoids aren't REALLY adapted towards like mutons or other groups. Its like comparing the shooting of a kid on csgo compared to an actual marine who is dealing with the weight of the gun, recoil, combat stress, ect. In other words, aren't sectoids giant space nerds with cutting edge tech?

Though if you want some ideas, i figure giving a muton a heavy alien alloy shield, and a pistol would certainly provide some challenge, and fit the shock trooper role. Especially if you make the shield troop more aggressive while others flank, that would be incredibly scary.

Not sure what could be done for other races that the engine can handle, i thought about waspites hatching into those bees monsters just for the hell of it since those guys seem fragile anyway, but that doesn't leave a corpse does it?

Maybe snake men could be given chameleon like camo, and lower tech to fit the whole hunter vibe? Feel like a hunter joins predator with pet chrysalids...

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1639 on: February 08, 2018, 01:58:23 pm »
Yeah, but it still doesn't explain why they're better than Mutons, who use the same fighter ships. Can you please elaborate?
Camo on Snakemen is anexcellent idea!

Offline mumble

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1640 on: February 08, 2018, 03:09:21 pm »
It's literally like my comparison of ranked gamers to marines. If you think about it, fighting in a ship is very similar to a video game. Sure, there's some risk of danger, but the stressors of this danger are somewhat removed.

The sectoid views, in my head canon, ship fights like a puzzle, emotionally removed, like a game. And since this is almost entirely a cerebral process, the sectiod has an edge. Compare this to the dumber, more animalistic mutons, and they aren't as good at such calculations, BUT, are better at primal, instinctive reactions, the "do or die" response, also associated with higher bravery. General physical fitness also applies, a muton is in athletic shape compared to the pudgy sectoid, and pure fitness alone would probably add some edge.

In short, sectoids aren't actually acclimated to combat like mutons are, more shakey from fear as they better grasp mortality than the very primal mutons, which makes them nervous, while also suffering a more frail body less capable of quick reactions.

You could also make the comparison of a jock in dodge ball / nerd playing Mario. Both are good in respective jobs, and both involve reaction time, but the jock, less acclimated to Mario would be worse, while the nerd would be less reactive in dodge ball.

Tl;dr, i think you are assuming reactions apply across the board, rather than differentiation of reactions in front line combat, and reactions in the "relative" safety of an incredibly strong ufo hull, which is also semi equipped to survive crashes.

I guess you could say the sectoid is impeded by its nerves in reacting, or that the unpredictable nature of the battlefield makes them less effective at reacting. Overly linier mindset and all.

I also may have other ideas... Perhaps a self destructive core inside chronites making them explode on death, and possibly waspites hatching into bee swarms on death. Or just releasing acidic spores which make any non waspite turn into a hostile fungal mass if it kills , immobile, but shooting more spores similar to a silacoid, very low range and very innaccurate, but extremely dangerous in close quarters. I think this would be fitting, since waspites were so damn fragile in fmp.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1641 on: February 08, 2018, 04:04:18 pm »
I don't think the nerd/beast distinction is at all realistic. In the military, such words are absolutely meaningless; there is only trained and untrained. Well, another factor is morale, but it would probably favour Mutons rather than Sectoids. I am not torpedoing your ideas for the sake of it, but this explanation seems unconvincing.
Another simple or simplistic - idea I had was simply that Mutons, being tall and heavy, are simply less suited to high-g than Sectoids. Sectoids have very light bodies relative to muscle strength and are physically small, so they can risk bolder manoeuvres - because they won't get knocked out by them. So maybe it's not as much skill as physical predisposition. The problem is, this wouldn't really matter with gravity generation technology since everything is taken care of with a simple grav buffer (which counteracts any issues with extreme acceleration).

The ideas for Chtonites and Waspites are interesting, but seem a bit extravagant. I will certainly buff Waspites somehow, though.

Offline HT

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1642 on: February 08, 2018, 04:41:29 pm »
I think having only high-rank Sectoids carry psychic shields would be fair, considering that despite being the "grunt" alien unit, they can use ANY weapon of their arsenal and have no-LoS psychic powers, making they way more fearsome than vanilla already.

Having late-game X-Com power armors with force-fields sounds good too.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1643 on: February 08, 2018, 05:23:39 pm »
I can agree tp removing psi attacks, but the shield stays. XD

Offline mumble

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1644 on: February 08, 2018, 05:38:52 pm »
I think you have a too high focus on military being grunts. Sure everyone is trained, but an airforce jet mechanic is not comparable to a marine. Military still has cooks, doctors, scientists, scouts, ect, and obviously these are not all as hardened, or expected to be as hardened as marines.

This is what i meant, despite technology, mutons are first and foremost GRUNTS designed for combat. Sectoids are more so  for science work, research, and other secondary tasks it seems. Their psionic ability, intelligect, and other aspects makes them more favorable to gathering / intel missions than full on combat, despite all the tricks they have, and you wouldn't want to waste sectoids on overly dangerous missions when you could use chronites, mutons or anthropods, which are arguably cheaper to produce. I suppose the reason they do terror missions (the only real dangerous missions) is to gather statistics on horror and demoralizing humans.

I mean, this is all just head canon to justify sectoids being balanced in a new way, but clearly the aliens don't just view everyone as grunts equally, even the lore states otherwise, that anthropods and chronites are made for just grunts, primarily.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1645 on: February 08, 2018, 08:49:38 pm »
I guess. But aliens are less diverse than humans...
Honestly, I don't know what to do. I just got feedback from Dioxine how Sectoids are no problem at all. Who should I believe? Maybe I just need to buff other races?

Offline mumble

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1646 on: February 08, 2018, 11:54:55 pm »
I'm honestly not sure if dioxine is the best opinion on difficulty, considering hes a little bit of a madman about making things hard. Take his opinion with a grain of salt, hes the same guy who makes maps with acid rain, regenerating zombies, deserts that give heat stroke in 2 turns, and other stuff. Of course anything you can make would be no problem for him.

Also, has he ever complained you made anything too hard, ever?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1647 on: February 09, 2018, 10:49:23 am »
I'm sure he would be happy to hear it. :)
I will work on this anyway.  Balancing aliens is the hardest, since they are supposed to be the highest tier of enemies, but at the same time possible to overcome even in the early game. So... no promises at this point.
But remember: as opposed to vanilla, fighting aliens is not supposed to be fun.

Offline yizow

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1648 on: February 09, 2018, 11:21:21 am »
I'm not sure how relevant my input would be here; I'm only on March 1999, playing veteran, and have only encountered sectoids so far. The biggest ship i've had was this landed 3 story one, fat middle circle/ ring and narrow top and bottom.

im using UAC rifles (normal ammo) and smart magnum (alloy ammo)
I don't find the sectoids tankiness to be a problem. 3 solid hits ish, they go down; their weapons cant one-shot my alloy vest generally.

i do find their map-wide psi spam annoying though. : [ feels like theres not much counterplay except pray RNGesus doesn't mind control someone and then panic the 4 guys next to him. (i've started spreading out more to minimize that risk)
I also didn't know about their sense on top of everything else.

Taken together, i feel it makes sectoids more tedious and annoying to fight; not necessarily difficult. If its possible to make psi range be centered around sectoids, instead of global, i think that would make for an interesting mechanic.

Offline Martin

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Re: The X-Com Files - 0.8.4 alpha: Gauss Curves
« Reply #1649 on: February 09, 2018, 02:48:18 pm »
Sectoids are perfectly beratable even with shields up. Even starting shotguns can drop them with some