Re: The X-Com Files - 3.3: Mysteries Ancient And New

[tkzv]

So, what I noticed from 0.7.0 and earlier, wielding shotguns in particular but on other weapons, the game says I have a 100% chance to hit (Or more) but 6 times out of 10 it misses. Is there an explanation to This? Haven't had the time to update but this has happened on every version I've played

For which enemies did you observe that? For which shotguns? What ammo did you use? Buckshot or armor piercing? How do you tell a hit from a miss? By the enemy collapsing? By fatal wounds? By reading enemy statistics (from savefile or in debug mode)?

Zombies never get fatal wounds and have so many HPs, it takes several point-blank shots from a small shotgun to disable a zombie. Spikeboars have hides so thick, small shotguns do negligible damage. If the distance is longer that a few steps, much of the buckshot misses the target even for 100% accuracy.

Also the crop circles missions and the like are kind of a placeholder, since they will be a bit different once we have the reinforcements mechanics in the game.

Reinforcements for whom? Only the enemy? Will there still be a time limit after which all agents die? Will it become a 3-way fight between X-COM, farmers and MiB?

By the way, you still haven't answered my question about the Crop Circles mission when MiB arrive first. In 0.7.6 (haven't gotten that mission in 0.8* yet) during the battle the farmer's body is called stunned, but after the battle he is called dead with 0 penalty. Which is correct?

[SolRSolid]

It happened with all weapons with all enemies. Buckshot shotguns of any kind seemed significantly more effected, but it would happen on everything ranged. Never used melee enough to know if it was affected

---=== Two short posts within two minuts, srsly? Merging. ===---

The bullets just straight up always missed. Hit a wall or something. Left me scratching my head when it told me i had a 150% chance to hit

[HT]

Adding a smaller/earlier Workshop would not be so bad, I guess. But I will need to design it from scratch - not just the facility itself, but also its use, what you can do there, how much money you should spend, and so on. I will note it down for when I have time.

I would suggest to use what already works and give it a spin. For example:

What about something like a minor workshop dedicated to fabricate and sell art pieces and stuff that supposedly belongs to aliens/are part of alien tech? Mechanics-wise, it would be an excuse to give the player a minor source of income that cannot be used to directly improve your troops by building better guns and the like. In-game, it can be justified as using these pieces to track criminals and cultists. If you wish to complicate it more, you can make the dubious legality of the whole thing make the player wonder whether they want to get their hands dirty and if the end justifies the means, yadda yadda (of course it does, these power armor won't build themselves  )

The point is to imitate the still you start with from Piratez, which pretty much enables crafting and selling alcohol and little else, but adapted for X-Files. What do you think?

Well, first of all, enemies of X-Com are badass and they don't care about the weather. (I could make a winter clothes version of them, but it's not exactly a priority.)

As for their weapon choice, you are on their territory and that's why they do what they want. I have clarified the description a bit. I could give them worse weapons, but they're already rather unimpresive, and I think it would make the mission too easy.
Starting in a building instead of the vehicle (like in the surfing mission) can be done, yeah. Is that what you'd prefer?

I know, it's not a priority, but having some enemies carry "weather-appropiate" gear would be a good touch, but it's not essential. As for their weapon choice, is not about being in their territory, but more like they already start with the big guns while you must use your restricted gear. It would work better if it was a gradual increase (the first enemies you encounter do use small weapons and reinforcements enemies from further inside the map carry bigger stuff), but I doubt the engine would allow this to work, especially with the randomized terrain.

Starting inside a building for the winter mission would be vastly preferable, of course...

I'm not denying that.

... But using Xcom's actual incompetence against them to set up a "failed infiltration mission becomes a shoot-out" could work in a joke mission or two, but it would be better to not to abuse that to avoid pissing off the players. 

The bullets just straight up always missed. Hit a wall or something. Left me scratching my head when it told me i had a 150% chance to hit

The numbers are not that precise, there are many variables which are not included such as the enemy's positioning and height, which can alter the result (ie: the bullet flying low enough that it hits the fence the enemy was hiding behind). That's done on purpose to emulate ballistic physics IIRC.

[niculinux]

So, I gave it another try after having not played it for multiple updates and playing Piratez instead, I would like to write down my impressions:

The beginning is more polished than int he early updates, but there's still the trouble that you must attend to countless cases/monster hunts/Arrest Suspects every month in order to have a chance to get some money (is X-Com the only agency taking care of 'supernatural' cases or what?), something which quickly becomes repetitive and boring. Unlike Piratez, here you don't have alternative ways to get money besides the end of the month rating and whatever trinkets you capture and sell. I think there should be something available earlier to the Workshop to ease the player's tedium a little.

Also, while the new weapons are welcome, the starting gear continues to be better than most cases as it was before, and then some of the new additions are of dubious usefulness (for example: What's the point of the Kludge? It seems like a poor man version of better weapons you already have access to).

I agree, but maybe the manufaturing in this mod is more like "secound though"? It became more useful a bit more than the start? Hey me too cannot find a reason for the kludge, it may have more sense when some kind of "firearms manufacturing licence" have been researched, so manufacturing homebrew gun may have more sense,another possibility to have more hardware without goin to the market? That may also applies to rifles and smg? My 2cent as always!

[Solarius Scorch]

Reinforcements for whom? Only the enemy?

For now, only the enemy. A more general unit spawning system is a much further goal. (And the one about reinforcements is still mostly wishful thinking, but I have faith.)

Will there still be a time limit after which all agents die?

No, no need for that - I can simply spawn an unstoppable army after X turns.

Will it become a 3-way fight between X-COM, farmers and MiB?

Nah, not the right scale. Plus, the farmers can only behave like any other civilian (or alien).

By the way, you still haven't answered my question about the Crop Circles mission when MiB arrive first. In 0.7.6 (haven't gotten that mission in 0.8* yet) during the battle the farmer's body is called stunned, but after the battle he is called dead with 0 penalty. Which is correct?

Truth be told, I need to investigate... I just don't know, I've changed it several times and the recovery code also changed.

I would suggest to use what already works and give it a spin. For example:

What about something like a minor workshop (...)

The point is to imitate the still you start with from Piratez, which pretty much enables crafting and selling alcohol and little else, but adapted for X-Files. What do you think?

Yeah, this is exactly what I need to rethink. XD
But alien art is a bit much, X-Com knows nothing of this sort... At least for many months or years to come.

I know, it's not a priority, but having some enemies carry "weather-appropiate" gear would be a good touch, but it's not essential. As for their weapon choice, is not about being in their territory, but more like they already start with the big guns while you must use your restricted gear. It would work better if it was a gradual increase (the first enemies you encounter do use small weapons and reinforcements enemies from further inside the map carry bigger stuff), but I doubt the engine would allow this to work, especially with the randomized terrain.

Yeah, so for now it stays.
These missions are more like extra challenges anyway. They must be a little weird.

Starting inside a building for the winter mission would be vastly preferable, of course...

OK, I'll see what I can do.

... But using Xcom's actual incompetence against them to set up a "failed infiltration mission becomes a shoot-out" could work in a joke mission or two, but it would be better to not to abuse that to avoid pissing off the players. 

Maybe in some Staff Input.

[HT]

But alien art is a bit much, X-Com knows nothing of this sort... At least for many months or years to come.

Eh, I think having it wait a few months is perfectly fair. You need to wait at least one year to finally have authorization and something to use the workshop for, plus at least Promotion 2 IIRC, so this should become earlier than that. Alien "art" or fakes or whatever to sell shouldn't take that long.

Also, I disagree in any case: In my latest playthrough I stumbled upon an UFO at Month 1, and I somehow recovered it! Granted, the Sectoids killed one of my agents and fatally wounded the other, but I have one free Sectoid corpse to research, as well as a few alien weapons that will rust away until the game no longer pretends they don't exist. 
 

[tkzv]

Also, I disagree in any case: In my latest playthrough I stumbled upon an UFO at Month 1, and I somehow recovered it! Granted, the Sectoids killed one of my agents and fatally wounded the other, but I have one free Sectoid corpse to research, as well as a few alien weapons that will rust away until the game no longer pretends they don't exist. 

I always get 2-3 UFOs in the 1st month But to start investigating alien weapons you need information from a live alien engineer, and what you get is random, thus you need several engineers. Interrogation requires a containment facility, which is impossible to finish in January 1997. I think it's possible to capture a landed UFO later in 1997-98, but I never managed to do that — the detection probability is too low and without interceptors they all leave too quickly.

For now, only the enemy. A more general unit spawning system is a much further goal. (And the one about reinforcements is still mostly wishful thinking, but I have faith.)

The rest of the wishlist has been implemented already

Truth be told, I need to investigate... I just don't know, I've changed it several times and the recovery code also changed.

I think, the captured STR_STUNNED_HUMAN_FARMER_CORPSE ("Stunned Human Farmer") after the mission should be turned into STR_STUNNED_HUMAN_FARMER ("Bewildered Farmer"), but killing STR_STUNNED_HUMAN_FARMER ("Bewildered Farmer") should yield STR_HUMAN_FARMER_CORPSE ("Human Farmer Corpse").

These missions are more like extra challenges anyway. They must be a little weird.

How about tying the difficulty of those missions to other arcs? If the player haven't unlocked any cult bases, weapon dealers are the weakest. If bases are unlocked, the dealers get better weapons. If a cult has been defeated, its strongest ex-members may work as hired guns for the dealers

The point is to imitate the still you start with from Piratez, which pretty much enables crafting and selling alcohol and little else, but adapted for X-Files. What do you think?

Yeah, this is exactly what I need to rethink. XD

What is the goal? Getting a source of income, or getting a way to manufacture stuff early on?

How about manufacturing without a workshop building? Certain not-too-secret works may be performed offsite. Or maybe it's something like "some assembly required" — doing everything locally is cheaper and faster, but if you place several orders in different civilian workshops and then a single engineer assembles everything together, the secrecy won't suffer. I can't figure the exact mechanics yet.

At first I thought of manufacturing tasks that require 0 space, 0 engineers and fixed time per unit, but I doubt the engine can work like that. If the HQ has manufacturing space of 1 and each manufacturing task has a counterpart that costs more, but requires no extra space, what would we get?

[Solarius Scorch]

How about tying the difficulty of those missions to other arcs? If the player haven't unlocked any cult bases, weapon dealers are the weakest. If bases are unlocked, the dealers get better weapons. If a cult has been defeated, its strongest ex-members may work as hired guns for the dealers

Why on Earth would cultists' operations depend on your research? I mean sure, you could justify it somehow, but I'm afraid it starts reeking of gamez.
While I can (and will) make more such missions with varied difficulty, I don't want to spend the rest of my life splashing around the early game. There will be more content, but not now - I want to finish building some basic middle/late game.

Yeah, this is exactly what I need to rethink. XD What is the goal? Getting a source of income, or getting a way to manufacture stuff early on?

I understand it's only about money. There is not much need to manufacture anything earlier anyway (that is, anything that wouldn't require a Workshop). But well, if I add this facility, I will have to come up with something.
(Will probably be called STR_BROOM_CLOSET, unless you have a better idea. )

How about manufacturing without a workshop building? Certain not-too-secret works may be performed offsite. Or maybe it's something like "some assembly required" — doing everything locally is cheaper and faster, but if you place several orders in different civilian workshops and then a single engineer assembles everything together, the secrecy won't suffer. I can't figure the exact mechanics yet.
At first I thought of manufacturing tasks that require 0 space, 0 engineers and fixed time per unit, but I doubt the engine can work like that. If the HQ has manufacturing space of 1 and each manufacturing task has a counterpart that costs more, but requires no extra space, what would we get?

I can't see how this would work. Well, the 1 desk "workshop" in the HQ would work, but it would be hideously hackish. If this happens, it will be a proper building.

[HT]

How about manufacturing without a workshop building? Certain not-too-secret works may be performed offsite. Or maybe it's something like "some assembly required" — doing everything locally is cheaper and faster, but if you place several orders in different civilian workshops and then a single engineer assembles everything together, the secrecy won't suffer. I can't figure the exact mechanics yet.

At first I thought of manufacturing tasks that require 0 space, 0 engineers and fixed time per unit, but I doubt the engine can work like that. If the HQ has manufacturing space of 1 and each manufacturing task has a counterpart that costs more, but requires no extra space, what would we get?

Well, as Solarius mentions, there's no need to craft anything at the start of the game since everything can be bought at the black market. This was an excuse to generate additional income. As for your second comment, I don't understand what exactly do you mean.

I know that in Piratez, workshop projects that require 0 space still take at least one engineer to function and still take one of the provided "slots", so to speak. Perhaps we could see something like this here.

... At worst, what about having X-COM outright synthesize and sell alcohol actually? Seeing the shit both the (overworked) scientists and agents have to deal with, I'm sure no-one would complain about such new addition. 

[tkzv]

Why on Earth would cultists' operations depend on your research?

Not research, but overall progress. At first the investigators notice only the small fry. Later they learn what to look for and start finding something bigger. Still later X-COM victories leave some very capable people unemployed and they can get this job to make player's life more interesting.

I mean sure, you could justify it somehow, but I'm afraid it starts reeking of gamez.

Of what?

While I can (and will) make more such missions with varied difficulty, I don't want to spend the rest of my life splashing around the early game. There will be more content, but not now - I want to finish building some basic middle/late game.

Where in the game is Osiron arc? When do you expect it to start and end in the finished game? Or are those missions something entirely unrelated to any arc? I assumed that after some fairly late trigger weapon trade missions will grow into something bigger.

I understand it's only about money.

If the game is unbalanced in that regard, money problem can be solved by more missions where enemies guard money briefcases and bags Or just carry money on themselves more often.

Apocalypse allowed raiding Cult of Sirius repeatedly. I wonder if anything similar can be implemented in OXC...

There is not much need to manufacture anything earlier anyway (that is, anything that wouldn't require a Workshop). But well, if I add this facility, I will have to come up with something.
(Will probably be called STR_BROOM_CLOSET, unless you have a better idea. )

I can't see how this would work. Well, the 1 desk "workshop" in the HQ would work, but it would be hideously hackish. If this happens, it will be a proper building.

As for your second comment, I don't understand what exactly do you mean.

I know that in Piratez, workshop projects that require 0 space still take at least one engineer to function and still take one of the provided "slots", so to speak. Perhaps we could see something like this here.

Depending on how research goes and how much money do I have, I occasionally spend months waiting until I can build a workshop to manufacture some useful stuff like Stun Rods or Dart Pistols.

I imagine this as maybe something like sending an engineer to the nearest city to work in a rented workshop. Thus more time, more money. The problem is: this way the workshop space should be unlimited and it's necessary to have 2 kinds of workshop space: limited for faster on-site manufacturing and unlimited for remote manufacturing.

... At worst, what about having X-COM outright synthesize and sell alcohol actually? Seeing the shit both the (overworked) scientists and agents have to deal with, I'm sure no-one would complain about such new addition.

Factory-made medical alcohol is cheaper.

[Solarius Scorch]

Not research, but overall progress. At first the investigators notice only the small fry. Later they learn what to look for and start finding something bigger. Still later X-COM victories leave some very capable people unemployed and they can get this job to make player's life more interesting.

Well, I guess it could be done, yeah. But I don't exactly understand the purpose of it. Sure, you could try and tweak the difficulty ad infinitum, but I'm really not interested in that - if you're up to the challenge, do it; otherwise bail out.
My only concern with such missions is if they're worth doing in terms of rewards.

Of what?

Of artificial game mechanics.

Where in the game is Osiron arc? When do you expect it to start and end in the finished game? Or are those missions something entirely unrelated to any arc? I assumed that after some fairly late trigger weapon trade missions will grow into something bigger.

There is no Osiron arc as such, they just pop up here and there. Unlike cults, they have no overall leadership, and unlike groups like the Cyberweb, they do not have any overarching goal except for getting rich. So like all crime, they can't really be destroyed as a faction - they're just pests.

Anyway, I'm open for suggestions.

Apocalypse allowed raiding Cult of Sirius repeatedly. I wonder if anything similar can be implemented in OXC...

Well, one could make a repeatable mission which yields no penalty if ignored.
 

I imagine this as maybe something like sending an engineer to the nearest city to work in a rented workshop. Thus more time, more money. The problem is: this way the workshop space should be unlimited and it's necessary to have 2 kinds of workshop space: limited for faster on-site manufacturing and unlimited for remote manufacturing.

Yeah, it's getting into a trainwreck fast...
So yeah, I can make a starting workshop, but we still need sensible manufacturing projects for it. I'll ponder this.

[tkzv]

There is no Osiron arc as such, they just pop up here and there. Unlike cults, they have no overall leadership, and unlike groups like the Cyberweb, they do not have any overarching goal except for getting rich. So like all crime, they can't really be destroyed as a faction - they're just pests.

As I said above, rising difficulty could introduce their arc nicely. But if there's nothing to introduce...

Anyway, I'm open for suggestions.

How about a chance to get the research you missed if you finished another arc too fast? If survivors of the 4 cults, Syndicate and Cyberweb join Osiron, they can be questioned. Still too much work for inadequate reward?

So yeah, I can make a starting workshop, but we still need sensible manufacturing projects for it. I'll ponder this.

The only use for it I can think of is getting new tech you need urgently rather than next month. This does happen.

[Solarius Scorch]

You can't get locked out from a research by terminating an arc. For example if you terminate Church of Dagon before you capture a Deep One, it doesn't mean you'll never get Deep Ones - there will be other opportunities.

[HT]

For starting manufacture projects, what about butchering the monsters you find for parts? You already do that for the medigel thing once you unlock that tech, but something earlier could be done in order to better take advantage of these werewolves' corpses, giant spiders and so on that you don't have any use for. This way you don't have anything for the player to manufacture for the early game while seeing some use for engineers if "alien art manufacturing" is not acceptable.

Later on the player would discover better alternatives to use a proper workshop, such as the aforementioned medigel extraction.

[tkzv]

You can't get locked out from a research by terminating an arc. For example if you terminate Church of Dagon before you capture a Deep One, it doesn't mean you'll never get Deep Ones - there will be other opportunities.

What are other ways to get durathread besides killing Red Dawn mambers?