Author Topic: [piratez] Buffing suggestions  (Read 10390 times)

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2016, 03:36:36 pm »
I 100% agree with that. UFO/xcom gameplay is all about coordinating the actions of multiple characters/equipments.

My original reservations with shotguns assumed that the entire team had a similar amount of experience. But there are fresh troops throughout the game, either to replace casualties or because you're expanding. These new troops don't have the strength to carry multiple weapons to be useful in many situations, so they will always have some kind of specialization. It's the kind of thing you take into account when organizing your assault (ie. assaulters are followed with people who carry alternative and stunning weapons)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2016, 03:56:36 pm »
Indeed. I expect the ratio of wounded pirates to be very high, hence the constant need for extra hands.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2016, 05:00:28 pm »
I 100% agree with that. UFO/xcom gameplay is all about coordinating the actions of multiple characters/equipments.

My original reservations with shotguns assumed that the entire team had a similar amount of experience. But there are fresh troops throughout the game, either to replace casualties or because you're expanding. These new troops don't have the strength to carry multiple weapons to be useful in many situations, so they will always have some kind of specialization. It's the kind of thing you take into account when organizing your assault (ie. assaulters are followed with people who carry alternative and stunning weapons)

Yeah, I'm often passing out a combat shottie for the auto fire to the rookie gals.  And maybe with boosted stun, they will knock someone down instead of out. :)

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2016, 01:59:27 am »
Shotguns are great disposable weapons for frontline rookies, but I prefer stick grenades since they're easy to aim, dropping due to panic doesn't seem to do much, and they have the potential to damage any enemy regardless of his armor, and doesn't weigh much.


Offline Arthanor

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2016, 03:03:00 am »
Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.

As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2016, 08:48:13 am »
Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.

As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).
Haha I once used a shotgun against a tank it was FUN! half of the town was on fire afterwards. There was a bit of Cotton candy you see...Then clowns...

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2016, 11:10:51 am »
Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.

As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).

Nothing personal, I just reply to what I see. What I saw was a request for armor damage on shotguns, which would make them pretty deadly against tanks in sustained fire. And yeah that's what some people did request, as some people will always want more buffs.

Your Hammer suggestion is all nice and dandy and I agree but the engine does not support such weapon behavior. It has to be a ranged weapon precisely because only a ranged weapon can attack terrain.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2016, 04:11:43 pm »
Tanks invulnerable to a ill-equipped band of pirates may be realistic, but don't make the gameplay better. I'd rather be able to kill a "boss" enemy in 30 successful hits, than have to abort the mission (or worse, reload to point before I wasted a heavy explosive).
Shotguns wouldn't even be the best weapon to wear out armor, as it's suicidal to stay within firing range and if tank gets a reaction shot, you're now facing the front armor, the thoughest.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2016, 04:40:57 pm »
I think only the turret rotates, actually, so you would still be facing rear armor. And tanks aren't that much of a problem as there is generally only a few and melee weapons to the rear armor can deal with them. It's rather suicidal unless applied with overwhelming numbers but I think that's fine. And if you don't want to pay the price, then I think the enemy should win. They also have the significant disadvantage of being 2x2 so you can easily hide in buildings (too bad the AI doesn't do suppressive/destructive shots when it can't reach a player unit).

Having shotguns as a tank counter by armor reduction is not necessary, nor realistic. With a threshold that it damages armor if no penetrating hit is made for armors under 50, maybe, but then what's the point? You have ways to deal with armor 50 units much more easily. What might be nice is a TU and (small) stun damage on pellets that is applied regardless of health damage, representing the impact of a short range shotgun blast destabilizing (deafening, startling and buffetting) the target.

Generally hard enemies like mercs are more of an issue if you are not prepared for them, as they are numerous and all share the toughness. But even they can still be worn down with enough effort. And you should have better than starting weapons when you encounter them any ways. Terror units should be difficult, they are the added challenge of the harder mission.

Re: hammer
We've already discussed the pros and cons and agreed on our respective takes. I was just mentioning it for meridian who was suggesting something similar. I certainly agree that having melee damage on terrain if no unit is present to target would be nice. But that also breaks it for elevators. Elevators are a a pain..

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2016, 04:54:39 pm »
I'd rather be able to kill a "boss" enemy in 30 successful hits, than have to abort the mission (or worse, reload to point before I wasted a heavy explosive).

What you're suggesting is basically that every mission in the game should be winnable no matter how ill-prepared you are. No, no, and no. And what was that point on wasting HE? Nothing is immune to HE packs, used in enough quantities.

Also I don't get the whole 'worse realism = better gameplay' take. I don't agree with that at all. This rather should be countered by how missions are constructed, not by allowing every weapon to be effective against everything.

Offline BetaSpectre

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2016, 07:31:43 pm »
I generally equip all of my soldiers with an explosive and a rifle. I've yet to encounter a situation where I couldn't take something out. As long as its not 20 mercs haha.
Also during combat enemy soldiers have equipment as well. Even if you go in with 18 gals with holdout pistols. As long as your enemy has enough grenades you can take out their tanks. Unless you're fighting mercs of whom their weakest link is still tough.

Gameplay is enhanced by how underequipped units being unable to match powerful ones. It makes you prepare for the scenario in a more resourceful manner. And reminds you to use all the resources you have available.

Gauss weapons, and grenades are plentiful in the game so it shouldn't be a problem to begin with unless you intentionally decided to sell them all or not attack ships with lasers or gauss weapons. Or you're still on your first mission.

Lasers rifle+ and Gauss can penetrate merc and tank armor. Power armor is even easier to breech than Merc armor funny enough though it might just be the user being less durable in PA.

I remember a fight with some mercs where I had two Gauss rifles. At the end of the fight I had about 13. Though the use of stick grenades, looting, and Gauss fire I managed to down the mercs one by one to take their rifles. If anything this should be a lesson to keep at least one or two good weapons to breech armor around on the Bonaventura. And to equip all units with grenades.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2016, 08:38:45 pm »
Looting enemies is the good practice, but you can't rely on it 100% because their stuff may be too high-tech to use yet.
What you're suggesting is basically that every mission in the game should be winnable no matter how ill-prepared you are.
I doubt it would have this effect. You may bring an unlimited amount of low-caliber bullets in the Bonny, but it will take an absurdly high amount of successful hits to kill a tank.
I computed the following stats for head-on shots to a tank, assuming 100% vulnerability, default HP and armors get chipped up to 1/3 of their normal value.
Your weapon power 75: 14hits (same as today)
Your weapon power 65: 20hits (same as today)
Your weapon power 60: 24 hits (instead of 25)
Your weapon power 55: 30 hits <- heavy machine gun
Your weapon power 45: 45 hits
Your weapon power 35 : 63 hits <- assault rifle/PS
Your weapon power 25 : 93 hits
Your weapon power 22 : 124 hits <- buckshot, old pistol

I won't bear people with many scenarii, but for example to kill a Provost with AK47 only, you'd still need to hit him 42 times in the back.

And what was that point on wasting HE?
Oh, I just now understood your answer : I meant wasting your last HE pack earlier on enemies which could be handled differently, and you regret it later when you find a though guy.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 08:52:30 pm by yrizoud »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2016, 09:03:31 pm »
Or you can simply use proper weapons for the job, geeze. This is getting awfully stupid and there is little point in continuing this discussion. Low-powered projectiles simply disintegrate when they hit heavy armor, leaving no damage, unless there is a stream of projectiles hitting the same spot.

Also if you present any calculations, it's prudent to also tell the formulas they're based on.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [piratez] Buffing suggestions
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2016, 10:21:35 pm »
Once again:
I'm sorry if it's a stupid idea, I don't even know the full range of armors and damage of Piratez, so I can't be sure if it would make sense.
In case this was a question, the statistical average damage per hit for UFO1 (0-200% range) can be counted this way:
if power*2 > armor
  hp loss = (power*2 - armor)/(power*2)
end
I simply made cumulative total, reducing armor on every step until it reaches the minimum 1/3.

Proper tools for the job? Geez, I wish I knew what was the job in advance.
edit: Sorry for the sarcasm, I had missed your meaning. Of course player should plan for trouble, but there's no way to know the upper limit of what you'll be facing. Can there be 2 armored cars ? 4 ? 10 ?
I made these computations to measure what would happen if somebody did something "stupid". I think the numbers are high enough to show it's "a bad idea", especially considering the decreasing morale and the turn 20 rule.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 11:34:46 pm by yrizoud »