Author Topic: Why the hate for instant grenades?  (Read 4280 times)

Offline thevideogameraptorboggle

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Why the hate for instant grenades?
« on: March 04, 2016, 03:42:40 am »
Ive seen so many mods like X-Piratez say not to use it, but it's one of the best things Open Xcom has done to the game. Being assured that tanky aliens like Chryssalids and Cyberdisks will die when I blow them up with a High Explosive rather than having to guess that they will die, then they don't and they kill your troopers is great. It also makes breaching and blowing up cover actually useful. If that applied to 2012 XCOM, then grenades would be useless, because after the grenade explodes and takes out the alien's cover, then the alien would move to new cover on their turn.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2016, 04:28:52 am »
As currently implemented they change the dynamic of thrown explosives.  There's no more uncertainty if your grenade really will kill the enemy on the end of your turn.  It also eliminates the time honored Grenade Relay tactic. 

For PirateZ its a bit of a different story, because there are many items that function as "instant grenades,"  molotovs, and black powder bombs as early examples.  Combined with traditional thrown explosives there is a richness of tactical diversity, a testament of the vision of its author, Dioxine.   So for this mod, its designed to teach the player new tactics and provide a more diverse playing experience.

Offline thevideogameraptorboggle

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2016, 05:20:03 am »
I never thought about grenade relay actually. But I prefer instant grenades over grenade relay. Because if they explode on your turn, then you can destroy cover.

Offline Phoenix7786

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2016, 08:13:01 am »
I don't hate instant grenades at all.

Offline Boltgun

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 12:45:13 pm »
I prefer to do grenade relay. But in vanilla it's make no sense that, when you toss two explosives at a cyberdisk, the first one destroys the other.

I think TFTD explosives does not have this issues.

Offline DeltaEpsilon

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2016, 12:56:49 pm »
They introduce some unfair tactics. While I totally love instant grenades, I have to admit they are somewhat cheaty.
One of the most OP use of Instant Grenades is virtually removing any risk of expected reaction-fire (that is, when you can shoot an enemy and probably (!) get shot or get away). It makes the game go like this: have a scout creep a bit, spot an enemy, throw a smoke grenade from afar, use the entirety of your squad without risking being shot back. It's only possible with Instant Grenades.
Another one is insane DPT grenades are capable of delivering. Without Instant Grenades you are forced to either: use only one explosive to the most extent (EU game, explosions destroy explosives) or be uncertain whether your explosives will do the job with the enemy (TFTD, already mentioned here).


As for grenade relay, I'll have you know that you can easily turn off Instant Grenades, relay a grenade and then turn it on again and throw it. In fact I already suggested one idea to make the process less boring.
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4151.0.html

Offline yrizoud

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 02:31:57 pm »
Gosh, I hadn't thought of the instant smoke, this is really OP.
in vanilla it's make no sense that, when you toss two explosives at a cyberdisk, the first one destroys the other.
This is really one thing that should be "fixed" by default. There may be many situations to consider, but in the specific case of primed explosives set to go off in the same turn, having them "cancel" each other is never the right thing.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 10:47:38 pm by yrizoud »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 06:02:45 pm »
With basically 100% accuracy (due to high Throwing stat of all your agents) and high power, grenades are already quite OP compared to other weapons. Grenade spam is the easiest tactic available in the UFO, and even more so in TFTD, where firearms are worse and enemies - more poweful. Instant grenades further empower grenades as you can use them real-time and make your subsequent moves after seeing the result (and in UFO, also you can attack an enemy with several grenades - in TFTD you can do it even without instant grenades on).
What you're losing is grenade relay, which is a powerful tactic in some situations. But as Editor_RUS wrote, it can be circumvented.

Offline AMX

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2016, 09:22:11 pm »
I rather liked how it was handled in Apoc - you had both "Activates now" and "Activates at end of turn" available; and when a grenade was destroyed by an explosion, it didn't simply disappear - it blew up...

Offline 7Saturn

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2016, 12:42:07 am »
I never bothered, to test that one, as I pretty much always use the instant grenades (for me also one of the most interesting features, OXC added to X-COM), but the fact, that with timer 1, the grenade will go off at the end of the aliens next turn makes it in fact a little awkward. An extra option to let it go off at the end of the round would be nice, indeed. Or add a »-1« for instant grenades and let the rest be like in vanilla X-COM.

Offline DeltaEpsilon

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2016, 02:52:16 pm »
Quote
I never bothered, to test that one, as I pretty much always use the instant grenades (for me also one of the most interesting features, OXC added to X-COM), but the fact, that with timer 1, the grenade will go off at the end of the aliens next turn makes it in fact a little awkward. An extra option to let it go off at the end of the round would be nice, indeed. Or add a »-1« for instant grenades and let the rest be like in vanilla X-COM.

That idea of mine was rejected, as much as I know.
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4151.msg55935.html

Offline Countdown

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2016, 04:23:47 pm »
If you are playing with instant grenades that is just like setting it to '0'. I agree with the others in that thread that having the option to have instant grenades AND the grenade relay is too much. It's a tactical decision: either instant grenades or grenade relay. You have to pick your advantage, but can't use both.

If you want to solve the issue of multiple explosives destroying each other, do as Warboy said and add armor to grenades or do as Yankes said and play OXCE where it is handled automatically. From UFOPaedia, max damage by a high explosive is 165, so if you set armor to 166 then grenades/HE will be indestructible against anything besides a blaster bomb. Unrealistic that they will survive all other blasts, but it fixes the bigger problem of not being able to use two grenades against an enemy on the same turn.

PS - Grenade Armor mod attached
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 04:44:41 pm by Countdown3 »

Offline Xtendo-com

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2016, 12:58:02 am »
Combined with SuperHuman+Ironman+Hardcore mods instant grenades it's not very OP. Soldier with zero activated grenades transforms into kamikaze and very dangerous to your soldiers around. Mistake can cost you an additional casualties without any way to revert action. Without activation you should spend a lot of TU, so you can't toss a lot of grenades by one soldier. Grenadier mostly useless when you assault inside in UFO or enemy base.
Smoke grenades will be a usefulness item that prevents you to lose your soldiers so easily in hardcore playing style until you meet a melee based units with a lot of TU like chryssalid, so it's also not a panacea anyway.

I have to admit they are somewhat cheaty.
Game don't has a special AI behavior in order to use an instant grenades as advantage for aliens, like increased chance to toss a deadly alien grenade instead of shooting especially on reaction-fire.

Offline Countdown

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2016, 11:07:00 am »
Did original XCOM allow you to pre-prime grenades in the pre-mission equipment screen or was that an OXC addition? I know instant grenades is OXC, don't know about pre-priming.

Online Solarius Scorch

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Re: Why the hate for instant grenades?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2016, 11:54:33 am »
Did original XCOM allow you to pre-prime grenades in the pre-mission equipment screen or was that an OXC addition? I know instant grenades is OXC, don't know about pre-priming.

No, it wasn't in the original game.