Author Topic: Area 51 - General Feedback thread  (Read 145531 times)

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2015, 12:23:51 am »
Oh, autumn, how nice. I think it lacks of yellow trees (colorgroup9 and slightly lighter, by 2-3 steps than forest green) and the yellow/red leaves on the ground.

:)

Grassland tileset on Forest maps


Taiga tileset on Forest maps


Savanna tileset on Forest maps


Steppe tileset on Forest maps


Tundra tileset on Mountain maps


And I'm merely using the existing vanilla maps and terrains for these images. Because it is also possible to switch the tilesets around and make at least two more Savanna terrains by using the existing mountain and desert maps:




Or take the Tundra tileset and apply it to the Desert maps:


And the best part? You can combine 2 of those tilesets and design maps with 2 kinds of trees (and there's already 3 tree recolors on the images above), etc. :)

Someone please tell Supsuper I'm now waiting for the ability to assign several terrains to the same Geoscape texture. :P
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 06:34:15 am by Hobbes »

Offline the_third_curry

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2015, 02:13:51 am »
I'm about to try this. Does anyone happen to know if it's compatible with Shoes' Soldier Diaries?

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2015, 02:37:48 am »
I'm about to try this. Does anyone happen to know if it's compatible with Shoes' Soldier Diaries?

At this point, the only conflict I see is with the UFOPedia section.  Shoe's new soldier diaries includes a Commendations mod which rearranges the UFOPedia, but this mod does even more of that.  I'm sure the changes would conflict.   If you are fine with playing without the awards (ribbons and medals) in the commendations mod, just don't enable it, and this mod should work with it.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2015, 03:30:21 am »
I'm about to try this. Does anyone happen to know if it's compatible with Shoes' Soldier Diaries?

If you're looking to see those new terrains I still need to work more on them before adding to the expansion. And at this stage nearly all Geoscape textures are already assigned to existing terrains so I can't add anything new to the UFO missions without having to remove something else. The good news is that when the nightlies can support multiple terrains per texture then there will be a lot of new terrains to play since there it will be possible to make a lot of variations.

The Commendations mod should conflict with the UFOPedia.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:33:41 am by Hobbes »

Offline tollworkout

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2015, 05:37:42 am »
I have played around with this mod a bit . Here are my first observations.


I like the small teams. But i think you need to up the weapon damage and give early game armor and more armor choices for late game. In order to have smaller teams soldiers need to deal more damage and die less especially early game.

As I said before I think weapon damage should be higher. For example your Sniper Rifle deals 45 damage and I think aimed shot is like 105% or 115% can't remember. Meanwhile the rifle deals 40 damage. A sniper rifle should be much more powerful than that. I'd make it 80-100 damage and 150% or so aimed. See Equal Terms mod it gets most damage ratios really well and gives early armor choices etc.

I don't mind the alternate tech tree makes the game more challenging and fun.

I don't really find the reorganized ufopedia that useful. Some weapons are in miscellaneous but should be in Weapons and Ammunition .All weapons and ammo should be in that category to be easier to find. Is a bit tricky because you have different organizations now including cultists and MJ12 and Overlord. Maybe something like this?

Council Reports <THIS IS GOOD
HWP, Weapons & Equipment <list ALL xcom usable battlescape gear here including alien/MJ12/cultist ones even if you cannot build them)
UFOs, Crafts & Armament < list all crafts from everyone here and all weapons. all crafts use same weapons anyway for example MJ12 crafts probably very similar to Xcom ones and late game Xcom craft weapons are alien ones.
UFO Components & Artefacts < list alien UFO facilities and artefacts here
Base Facilities
Alien Life Forms & Autopsies <list all autopsies here including MJ12 and cultists and overlord
Alien Research <list alien and overlord researc here
Other Organizations <list MJ12 and cultists research here

Note this ufopedia is 8 long and so you can make it compatible with commendations mod if you so wish.

Also I didn't like how MJ12 are so high tech. I liked the idea of MiB as they are lower tech than XCom and look like men in suits but later become high tech as well. I like the black suits pretty cool. But I like the MJ12 ships that look like skyranger is smart.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 05:44:14 am by tollworkout »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 07:04:00 am »
I have played around with this mod a bit . Here are my first observations.


I like the small teams. But i think you need to up the weapon damage and give early game armor and more armor choices for late game. In order to have smaller teams soldiers need to deal more damage and die less especially early game.

Didn't remember about armor with smaller teams *facepalm*

Any suggestion for an early armor?

Quote
As I said before I think weapon damage should be higher. For example your Sniper Rifle deals 45 damage and I think aimed shot is like 105% or 115% can't remember. Meanwhile the rifle deals 40 damage. A sniper rifle should be much more powerful than that. I'd make it 80-100 damage and 150% or so aimed. See Equal Terms mod it gets most damage ratios really well and gives early armor choices etc.

Rifle damage is 30 actually. Isn't 150% an automatic hit for most accuracy levels of the soldiers? The issue with the Equal Term mod is that it removes the vanilla weapons, which is a complete no-no. I'm completely open to suggestions about how to balance the weapons, but the vanilla weapons need to stay as they are.

Quote
I don't really find the reorganized ufopedia that useful. Some weapons are in miscellaneous but should be in Weapons and Ammunition .All weapons and ammo should be in that category to be easier to find. Is a bit tricky because you have different organizations now including cultists and MJ12 and Overlord. Maybe something like this?

Council Reports <THIS IS GOOD
HWP, Weapons & Equipment <list ALL xcom usable battlescape gear here including alien/MJ12/cultist ones even if you cannot build them)
UFOs, Crafts & Armament < list all crafts from everyone here and all weapons. all crafts use same weapons anyway for example MJ12 crafts probably very similar to Xcom ones and late game Xcom craft weapons are alien ones.
UFO Components & Artefacts < list alien UFO facilities and artefacts here
Base Facilities
Alien Life Forms & Autopsies <list all autopsies here including MJ12 and cultists and overlord
Alien Research <list alien and overlord researc here
Other Organizations <list MJ12 and cultists research here

Note this ufopedia is 8 long and so you can make it compatible with commendations mod if you so wish.

Hm. All the info you get from MJ12/Cultists are from interrogations/autopsies, so it isn't that much (10 topics). I don't mind moving things around so that there is room for an extra topic, but that means it will only be compatible with only 1 mod that changes the UFOPedia. This is something that could be done later in the future with a separate ruleset but for the time being I don't think it's a good idea to have to mimic the UFOPedia on the Commendations mod because on the different topics on this UFOPedia.

Btw, have you seen the full UFOPedia in the debug mode?

Quote
Also I didn't like how MJ12 are so high tech. I liked the idea of MiB as they are lower tech than XCom and look like men in suits but later become high tech as well. I like the black suits pretty cool. But I like the MJ12 ships that look like skyranger is smart.

The reason why they are so high tech is actually to allow the player to recover a stockpile of advanced conventional weapons on the first month to help until you can unlock laser/plasma research. Also, after the first month it can be difficult to encounter them again, since the engine has 9 alien and 3 faction missions (1 being the MJ12 one) to choose randomly when generation the monthly mission.

Knowing this, do you still prefer for them to have normal tech conventional weapons?

Offline tollworkout

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2015, 08:07:52 am »
I realized I may have looked like a jerk seems I don't like anything about it. But I was only commenting on things that I think can be fixed. I think is a great mod overall it definitely combines a lot of neat things. Like having 5 factions with their own unique weapons and research trees (like omega stuff). The extra cities and terrains . And that you need to capture aliens to get research.


Any suggestion for an early armor?

For armour I recommend two types to start. 

First a light kevlar vest  small reduction to firing aim and throwing accuracy and  gives a bit more  front and back protection than overalls but sides or underneath same as overalls.

Second a full body kevlar armor type that gives more protection at sides and front but relatively less strong (although still more than overalls or vest) behind and also reduces TU, firing aim, stamina, and throwing accuracy.

Then later maybe some variations on personal armor would be nice .

Rifle damage is 30 actually. Isn't 150% an automatic hit for most accuracy levels of the soldiers? The issue with the Equal Term mod is that it removes the vanilla weapons, which is a complete no-no. I'm completely open to suggestions about how to balance the weapons, but the vanilla weapons need to stay as they are.

Maybe sniper rifle should have 60 to 80 damage and have a high aim using aimed but poor aim on snap and of course no auto. I want sniper rifle to mostly hit from really far away. Should hit from far away well with high damage but maybe high TU cost like 70 damage 150% aimed 70% TU. And yes I agree that it should not remove or change vanilla weapons. Although the mod's  assault rifle can auto shoot 5 times instead of 3 which would totally make sense with smaller teams.  If xcom rifle could shoot 5 times would make 2 people able to deal the damage of 4 kinda so would keep the game evenly balanced.



Btw, have you seen the full UFOPedia in the debug mode?

I seen it in debug mode. And I gotta say I love what you did there. Almost everything has ufopedia. And council report is must have. YES. I just think is disorganized and miscellaneous could be maybe Other Research at least. And MJ12 ships and stats should be listed in ufopedia.

Knowing this, do you still prefer for them to have normal tech conventional weapons?

Is nicer if they look like men in black suits  for first few months then they go to some xcom like early armor then  they get crazy armors and tech later. I kinda prefer them to be equal tech just different weapons.  But later on I want them to be high tech almost alien looking and kinda mixing with alien genetics and even use plasma. The armored crazy looking guy is for much later.  Early game is just a bunch of main in suits.

EDIT: I love the idea of mysterious agents in suits kinda reminds me of thinmen a bit. That's why I like men in black so mysteriously sounding. Shadow organization. And men in suits could still appear later but they could be really weak with crazy strong weapons like insane plasma or omega etc.  Later on you autopsy some advanced MI12 and realize they been mixing with alien genetics etc so they get psi powers or tougher bodies more agile etc so they may have alien stats at that point.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:32:59 am by tollworkout »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2015, 08:47:26 am »
I'm going to do a major overhaul of the Geoscape textures and terrains shortly. Here's the provisional list:

0: Taiga Forest / Original Jungle
1: Steppe Mountain / Jungle Temple             
2: Improved Farm / Native
3: Savanna Forest / Steppe Desert   
4: Grassland Desert / Grassland Forest
5: Tundra Mountain / Original Mountain
6: Mountain Forest / Mountain Jungle       
7: Desert Mountain / Original Desert
8: Savanna Desert/ Temple Desert
9: Polar Desert/ Polar Mountain
10: Original Forest / Original Jungle
11: Tundra Desert / Taiga Mountain
12: Original Polar

All the original terrains are still present, while several new ones will be introduced. And later, each texture will simply have a number of different terrains assigned, when this feature is introduced.

I realized I may have looked like a jerk seems I don't like anything about it. But I was only commenting on things that I think can be fixed. I think is a great mod overall it definitely combines a lot of neat things. Like having 5 factions with their own unique weapons and research trees (like omega stuff). The extra cities and terrains . And that you need to capture aliens to get research.

No worries, there can be several reasons behind the changes I've made and I'm aware that I may need to explain my reasoning in detail. But I'm also very much interested in all kinds of feedback. :)

Quote
For armour I recommend two types to start. 

First a light kevlar vest  small reduction to firing aim and throwing accuracy and  gives a bit more  front and back protection than overalls but sides or underneath same as overalls.

Second a full body kevlar armor type that gives more protection at sides and front but relatively less strong (although still more than overalls or vest) behind and also reduces TU, firing aim, stamina, and throwing accuracy.

Then later maybe some variations on personal armor would be nice .

I'll see which armor mods look the best.

Quote
Maybe sniper rifle should have 60 - 80 damage .  And yes I agree that it should not remove all the other weapons from the game. Although the mod's  assault rifle can auto shoot 5 times instead of 3 which would totally make sense with smaller teams.  If xcom rifle could shoot 5 times would make 2 people able to deal the damage of 4 kinda so would keep the game evenly balanced.

60? I've already heard before that the Sniper Rifle was overbalanced, so now I'm kinda of confused. 

Quote
I seen it in debug mode. And I gotta say I love what you did there. Almost everything has ufopedia. And council report is must have. YES. I just think is disorganized and miscellaneous could be maybe Other Research at least. And MJ12 ships and stats should be listed in ufopedia.

Well, if can show me a detailed sketch of how everything should be organized, then we can try your format to see how it works out.

Quote
Is nicer if they look like men in black suits  for first few months then they go to some xcom like early armor then  they get crazy armors and tech later. I kinda prefer them to be equal tech just different weapons.  But later on I want them to be high tech almost alien looking and kinda mixing with alien genetics and even use plasma. The armored crazy looking guy is for much later.  Early game is just a bunch of main in suits.

OK, the reason why I didn't want them to be MiB like is that it will be either integrated or recommended to use with this mod. But I had these nice military looking human units, weapons and a new terrain I'm working at, so I decided to add one of the main secret groups of UFO folklore. Later, their Agents have Personal Armor equivalent and their Stormtroopers have Power Suit equivalents. But, unlike the MiBs, MJ12 prefers direct action right from the beginning. :)

Offline volutar

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2015, 10:26:13 am »
60? I've already heard before that the Sniper Rifle was overbalanced, so now I'm kinda of confused. 
Sorry for interfering. But sniper rifles are generally making imbalance in wide range of games. They are eleminating random statistics from the gameplay formula. It's justified for the FPS or multiplayer game, when they are generally even, but with single player squad games, when most of units are just making their way through the bushes of constant misses, that really looks overbalanced (only with stat comparable to ordinary rifle it could be ok).
60 damage with 110% of chances (no misses)... Man, it's ridiculously overbalanced.

Offline tollworkout

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2015, 11:10:25 am »
Sorry for interfering. But sniper rifles are generally making imbalance in wide range of games. They are eleminating random statistics from the gameplay formula. It's justified for the FPS or multiplayer game, when they are generally even, but with single player squad games, when most of units are just making their way through the bushes of constant misses, that really looks overbalanced (only with stat comparable to ordinary rifle it could be ok).
60 damage with 110% of chances (no misses)... Man, it's ridiculously overbalanced.
}

Sounds like is overbalanced but think about it. Sniper rifle can only shoot one aimed shot per turn as it takes almost all TU. Snap shot is pointless on sniper rifle as is often low aim and still high TU. Your soldier cannot move much and cannot throw grenades or  use medkits because they would be really far out of combat. A weak soldier with decent accuracy you can turn into a sniper stay out of combat provide support for soldiers.  The range of fire must be clear open ground. Overbalanced? Debatable. A smg can shoot 3 times in 4 bursts that is 12 times in total. That is 12 times more opportunity/damage to kill enemies. A rifle auto shoot can deal 30 damage times 3 burst shots times 2 shots per turn (average) that's a lot of damage if it all hits and thats 6 chances at least one shot hits. Sniper rifle only once. IT needs to be high damage .


don't throw your eggs in one basket cause if the basket breaks all eggs will break too. well. thats sniper rifle. you're throwing away all your TU for one high damage shot. what's the point of doing that if it deals 40 damage and only shoots once. I would use rifles on all my soldiers at least I can shoot a bunch of times even from far out of range one shot will surely hit someone for 30 rather than 40 (not much difference). Now if it was 80 or so then i can see the advantage as you can one shot most  medium/weak enemies. but otherwise i'd stick with rifles as sniper is not worth the aim/tu /damage trade.

that's exactly my logic in choosing a weapon in game.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 11:24:00 am by tollworkout »

Offline hellrazor

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2015, 11:50:33 am »
If you're looking to see those new terrains I still need to work more on them before adding to the expansion. And at this stage nearly all Geoscape textures are already assigned to existing terrains so I can't add anything new to the UFO missions without having to remove something else. The good news is that when the nightlies can support multiple terrains per texture then there will be a lot of new terrains to play since there it will be possible to make a lot of variations.

The Commendations mod should conflict with the UFOPedia.

Will you ad this new terrains to your terrainpack later? I so far played with it and i really enjoyed it. More terrain please! :)

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2015, 03:24:23 pm »
overbalanced? Debatable. A smg can shoot 3 times in 4 bursts that is 12 times in total. That is 12 times more opportunity/damage to kill enemies. A rifle auto shoot can deal 30 damage times 3 burst shots times 2 shots per turn (average) that's a lot of damage if it all hits and thats 6 chances at least one shot hits. Sniper rifle only once. IT needs to be high damage.

I haven't done the math but the odds both for aim and damage between a Rifle firing 6 times at 35 aim, 30 power, versus a Sniper Rifle that fires once at 110 aim and 60 power seem to favor the Sniper Rifle.

But the real issue to me was described by Volutar: "They are eleminating random statistics from the gameplay formula". With this kind of Sniper Rifle you can bring a couple of soldiers with Sniper Rifles and you get almost automatic 1 shot kills (unless you get really unlucky with the damage roll) against Sectoids/Floaters.

And on the other hand, there's the opposite issue: how many shots should auto contain? LMGs, SMGs and Machine Pistols usually have between 4-6 shots and I'm finding them even more useful than Sniper Rifles. LMGs can fire 18 shots at 18% aim, 30 power. Rifles can only fire 6, at 36 aim and 30 power, plus 1 snap shot, which would look balanced, but the more chances for a roll with an LMG, the better your odds get. Wouldn't it be better to standardize all auto fire at 3 shots and play with the aim/damage/weight/etc stats instead?

To me several of the weapons included should be rebalanced but you need to have an overall view, otherwise by reducing/increase a weapon's stats you can be turning another into a lemon.

Will you ad this new terrains to your terrainpack later? I so far played with it and i really enjoyed it. More terrain please! :)

Yes :)

I've already edited the globe with a new texture since vanilla has one unused slot. Now I just need to finish 7 new terrains to add to those I already posted pics. And I'm going to remove the Alien Remix and Missions Pack from the download since they have been integrated on this mod.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:57:40 pm by Hobbes »

Offline tollworkout

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2015, 04:19:57 pm »
Nice texture on the globe.


Hmm. There needs to be an inverse power accuracy for sniper to make them unable to be used close up  and also lose accuracy if range too high as well giving them a sweet spot distance where damage/aim is maxed out.  That would bring the sure kill no randomness out from snipers and could still have high accuracy and high damage and still be able to miss a few too close or too far shots.

I think is more fun having a varied number of shots per weapon. 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 04:22:02 pm by tollworkout »

Online Ridаn

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2015, 06:22:34 pm »
I think Sniper Rifle is okay. May be increase damage to 40 from 35 is warranted, but then it will occasionally destroy walls (at 35 damage it does a maximum of (35 * 0.75 =)26.25 damage to walls, which have a "hardness" of 25), which would be weird.
There is around 45-60% chance to one shot basic Sectoid or Floater (30 and 35-45 hp with couple of armour points depending on facing) with standard damage formula, which seems like a sweet spot.
And Snapshot TU/Acc ratio allows for long range reaction fire if properly set up.
It is also quite lightweight (11loaded, same as basic rifle) and that, coupled with good accuracy, makes it a great weapon for rookie training at the start.

Offline tollworkout

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Re: Re: [BETA][EXPANSION] UFO Redux - Playtesters needed
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2015, 03:21:50 am »
I think Sniper Rifle is okay. May be increase damage to 40 from 35 is warranted, but then it will occasionally destroy walls (at 35 damage it does a maximum of (35 * 0.75 =)26.25 damage to walls, which have a "hardness" of 25), which would be weird.
There is around 45-60% chance to one shot basic Sectoid or Floater (30 and 35-45 hp with couple of armour points depending on facing) with standard damage formula, which seems like a sweet spot.
And Snapshot TU/Acc ratio allows for long range reaction fire if properly set up.
It is also quite lightweight (11loaded, same as basic rifle) and that, coupled with good accuracy, makes it a great weapon for rookie training at the start.


I did some testing of my own with equal terms and  enabled that option to have aim decrease over a certain range. With a soldier of 75 accuracy my 150% acc aimed sniper rifle shot was 115% all over the map. At 80 damage that's cheating.

So I must apologize to everyone as you were all right. The suggestions above seem fair.

However.  I think think there needs to be a bit more balancing done.

First the standard rifle in the game is supposed to be a sniper rifle which is why it has such a high aimed stats 110.  By comparison laser and plasma rifles have 100% aimed but higher damage and higher auto acc.

Rifle
Auto: 35% (Accuracy 35%)
Snap: 25% (Accuracy 60%)
Aimed: 80% (Accuracy 110%) <<as you can see this is way higher than it should be as it's a sniper rifle

So you added a second rifle that is also sniper with no auto. Maybe regular game rifle needs to be changed either into an assault or into a sniper rifle as right now it kinda does both.

Here is sniper rifle vs regular game rifle as assault:

Sniper Rifle
Snap: 18% (Accuracy 48%) <or ??? terrible snap so is not so useful close range is worse than pistol
aimed 95% (125%) <would be highest in the game just above heavy plasma and rocket launcher both 115%
damage 40
no auto
This would make the sniper rifle perfect for long range but the 125% max aimed shot acc would bring it under 100% even for the highest ranked soldiers adding that randomness back. Your 75 aim soldier would probably have 80%? or so chance of hitting all over the map using aimed . The low snap high aimed difference forces you to kinda set up camp and shoot once per turn instead of going around with 40 damage sniper rifle shooting multiple times using snap.

Rifle  (as assault)
Auto: 35% (Accuracy 35%)
Snap: 25% (Accuracy 60%) 
Aimed: 60% (Accuracy 90%) <simply reduce aimed for regular rifle
damage 30
Regular game rifle as i said as supposed to be a sniper. Simply downgrade the aimed acc so players would use aimed less and auto more often. 3 bullets at 35% accuracy is almost 105% chance it would hit vs 90% aimed chance.  Alternatively you can reduce auto a bit to 32% and damage a bit to 28 and have 4 bullets  per auto. That's more of an assault and you would go auto a lot with regular rifle.

Let me know what you think!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:43:33 am by tollworkout »