aliens

Author Topic: Xcom & TFTD  (Read 11151 times)

Offline bullitmagnet

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Xcom & TFTD
« on: January 20, 2012, 02:24:42 am »
When I used to play this on the Amiga 1200 (AGA not ECS LOL) I always wondered if there was a way of linking the two games, seeing as I never really thought of TFTD as a sequel, more an expansion or add-on. I was wondering if there could be a way to do this with Open X-Com, shoot down a ufo, if it hits water, the underwater specialists take over.

Course I know this would involve probably a lot of work, but if it could be done it would be cool. Keeping more things under control and also researching both sets of games items and aliens.

Just a thought  :)

Offline SupSuper

  • Lazy Developer
  • Administrator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 05:15:53 am »
This must rank up there with the most suggested ideas ever. :)

Offline DiceMaster

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 11:54:35 am »
TFTD always was more interesting for me. But I don't think it is a good idea to merge two games. Better to make both of them run on OpenXCom engine separetely.

Offline Daiky

  • Battlescape Programmer
  • Administrator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 12:15:41 pm »
It sounds a fun idea at first, but when you go into detail designing it, especially the geoscape features like  funding, research trees, transfers, the story,... It's far more complicated than you think.
So, from a developers perspective, I vote to keep them seperate. (from a gamers perspective I have to admit I've probably posted a similar suggetion somewhere once)

Offline kkmic

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
  • Undefined
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 12:18:45 pm »
I don't think it is a good idea to merge two games. Better to make both of them run on OpenXCom engine separetely.

I agree here. Mixing them means creating a new game. And that's an endeavor with high chance of failure.

What I would like to see is a "run on modern systems, bug free and graphically updated" UFO and TFTD game.

Offline luke83

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1566
    • View Profile
    • openxcommods
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 12:35:47 pm »
Joining them would be interesting long term but for the next year or 2 i think having them 2 separate games would be enough. Sure i would like to have a few aliens do cameos in ufo defence just for variety sakes , plus there a few features from TFTD that i want in UFO like multiply stage missions and maybe some sort of close combat option for when you have nothing else to fall back on ::)

Offline DiceMaster

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2012, 01:05:54 pm »
...plus there a few features from TFTD that i want in UFO like multiply stage missions and maybe some sort of close combat option for when you have nothing else to fall back on ::)
Two stage terror was really painful and boring. I always wanted to split it into different missions :)
But close combat is fine feature to have.

Offline Daiky

  • Battlescape Programmer
  • Administrator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 01:10:33 pm »
We already have a TFTD thing in UFO: opening doors with right click. ;)

Offline luke83

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1566
    • View Profile
    • openxcommods
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 01:41:53 pm »
"Two stage terror was really painful"
Pain is why i play this game , i like x-com when i winning , but i love x-com when im getting creamed!

I was actually thinking 2 part alien attack missions but hey terror mission would work also  :P

Offline bullitmagnet

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 06:37:02 pm »
Yeah i think keeping it seperate would probably be a better idea in alot of ways, if i could program at all id try and attempt it, but alas i cant, LOL loving all the work thats gone into this project though, cant wait to actually be able to play this as it was intended, dosbox is ok, but even at the lowest speed settings it moves too quick.

Offline Chiko

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2012, 08:47:07 pm »
Well, I would like TFTD to continue soon after I finish XCom. So I partially agree with the idea of having both into one game.

Offline grzegorj

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
  • grzegorj and Sherlock are my nicknames...
    • View Profile
    • X-COM
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 03:49:34 am »
I have chosen to add a post to this topic in order not to start another, very similar to the existing one. Here is my wishlist on (stages of?) possible future development of the project.

1. A full reimplementation of UFO EU, plus removing bugs. For example, the original game does not make use of Alien Reproduction. Containters that look like if they had young aliens inside, do exist in alien bases. The only problem is that the game sees them as "alien alloys" (btw., I am working on a patch to this). I also mean that OpenXCom should use all user-made patches (I am not sure if it uses RMP files now, but if yes, they are buggy and really need to be patched - it should be implemented in the game, without the need of patching UFO EU datafiles).

2. The next step: a full reimplementation of TFTD, as close to the original game as possible but with all needed patches as well (ex. against changing two smallest subs, or against some obvious research tree bugs). On this stage a player would choose which game he wants to play. Perhaps they should be termed "scenarios" rather than different games.

3. (Optional?) transferring some features from one game to another, like "kneel at end of turn/firing" and "drain time units to zero" buttons in the battlescape (also in the UFO EU scenario). Note that some features in UFO seems to be better than in TFTD (e.g. differences on the equipment screen).

4. Implementing (as options) features of XComUtil, UFOextender, TFTDextender etc.

5. Adding (to both games which I call scenarios) a possibility to use independently created resouces (gfx, snd, mus). Then you would not have to get original games to play OpenXCom. All things should look enough similar to the original ones. Perhaps also better graphics (higher resolution), still as an option.

6. Adding new ships, new terrains, perhaps new weapons (as an alternative or even as an option, plus a modification of the research tree if needed). Even now XComUtil offers a possibility to use a list of, say, several types of Large Scout, including the original one and some other ones. Before each mission the game choose by chance which UFO will be Large Scout in the present battle. This way you can have even 100 of different UFO types in the same campaign, divided into 8 main classes. I would see it all only as an option, all the time, together with a possibility to play an (almost) unmodified original scenario.

7. A free battle (even now there is such an option - it goes further than the original game), i.e. free battles, with a user-defined start point. I mean also games with EU aliens under the water, or games with a mixture of UFO and TFTD aliens in the same battle.

8. Using UFO 2000 lua-coded maps (and other features?), at least in free games. Or: added some maps as optional replacement for existing maps in the normal game (the way XComUtil does it).

9. Transferring some advanced ideas between games as an option. I mean, for example, two-phase alien base attacks, melee weapons, or playing with mixed crew in UFO EU (ex. mutons + ethereals in one mission), or real land missions in TFTD (on land maps from EU or created independently).

10. Making a third scenario: you start in EU, develop your soldiers, fight with aliens, but after Cydonia you continue the campaign with a number of oprions: the same soldiers (XComUtil, as I remember, can import soldiers from UFO EU into a new campaign in TFTD). Note that "TFTD after EU" would be just an option. The player would still have a possibility to play EU or TFTD as close to the original as possible.

11. Yet more advanced ideas in TFTD part of the third scenario: ex. using "land" weapons (imported from EU) during land missions, or possibility to shoot off a flying sub over the land, and next to have a normal land mission with TFTD creatures, say, in a forest map. If UFO EU and TFTD scenarios were played one after another, XCom should not forget UFO land weapons in the second part, and aquanauts should still have a possibility to use it against all those monsters from the deep on land missions. Too hard to implement? I hope not, in some years maybe :).

12. And the hardest challenge... Making a fourth scenario with both games in one (still as an option!), perhaps with one developed, logic and interesting scenario. Some ideas: you can have 8 land bases and 8 water bases, first you meet only UFOs, and only next also USOs. It is so because Gauss weapons are a result of further development of plasma technology. Appearing of first subs would be the aliens reaction to your success with UFO aliens (in this scenario the brain on Mars sends a tachyon beam much earlier than in the present games). Details could be discussed further. Would it be hard to implement? Perhaps. But I do not think it would be so hard. If you can already play UFO and TFTD scenarios within one game, the game internal procedures should be able to interpret fuctions of both games, given in proper rulesets. Only some additional features will have to be worked out (e.g. a button to switch between land and sea bases in the Geoscape). Many additional needed things, including several links between research trees of both basic scenarios, like plasma weapons being prerequisites of Gauss weapons, should be easy to do in rulesets files, not in the binaries. Yes, it would be a quite different game, just a new quality. Still with an option to play pure EU and pure TFTD separately...

In fact many of the above ideas can be treated as advanced modding. The only problem is that the game engine should allow such a modding...

At the same time I vote against implementing XCom Apocalypse in this project (even if I really like this game too). But it is just another game while UFO and TFTD are basically the same game. Or maybe implement only some features as an option/advanced modding, like rumbling walls, a possibility to crawl, etc.

And if some day somebody please to make an XCom Apocalypse reimplementation for modern computers, it will be just another project...

Offline pmprog

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
  • Contributor
    • View Profile
    • Polymath Programming
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 10:27:55 am »
1. A full reimplementation of UFO EU, plus removing bugs.
That's what this is

2. The next step: a full reimplementation of TFTD
I believe that's planned

3. (Optional?) transferring some features from one game to another, like "kneel at end of turn/firing" and "drain time units to zero" buttons in the battlescape (also in the UFO EU scenario). Note that some features in UFO seems to be better than in TFTD (e.g. differences on the equipment screen).
Already been discussed. Warboy even made some additional graphics to implement in the EU battle UI

4. Implementing (as options) features of XComUtil, UFOextender, TFTDextender etc.
Don't know enough about these, but some bits are already, and others will be

5. Adding (to both games which I call scenarios) a possibility to use independently created resouces (gfx, snd, mus). Then you would not have to get original games to play OpenXCom. All things should look enough similar to the original ones. Perhaps also better graphics (higher resolution), still as an option.
I would like this too.

6. Adding new ships, new terrains, perhaps new weapons (as an alternative or even as an option, plus a modification of the research tree if needed). Even now XComUtil offers a possibility to use a list of, say, several types of Large Scout, including the original one and some other ones. Before each mission the game choose by chance which UFO will be Large Scout in the present battle. This way you can have even 100 of different UFO types in the same campaign, divided into 8 main classes. I would see it all only as an option, all the time, together with a possibility to play an (almost) unmodified original scenario.
You can already add new weapons via the ruleset file, new ships can be done by map editors. New terrain would require more work, though I think a combination of graphic files, map files, and the ruleset would cover this (somebody correct me if I'm wrong)

7. A free battle (even now there is such an option - it goes further than the original game), i.e. free battles, with a user-defined start point. I mean also games with EU aliens under the water, or games with a mixture of UFO and TFTD aliens in the same battle.
You've already got this.

8. Using UFO 2000 lua-coded maps (and other features?), at least in free games. Or: added some maps as optional replacement for existing maps in the normal game (the way XComUtil does it).
I've not played UFO 2000 for a while, I assume Lua is for scripting events within the map? There has been talk of adding a scripting language to OXC in the past.

9. Transferring some advanced ideas between games as an option. I mean, for example, two-phase alien base attacks, melee weapons, or playing with mixed crew in UFO EU (ex. mutons + ethereals in one mission), or real land missions in TFTD (on land maps from EU or created independently).
Can already be set up via the ruleset, if I'm not mistaken

10. Making a third scenario: you start in EU, develop your soldiers, fight with aliens, but after Cydonia you continue the campaign with a number of oprions: the same soldiers (XComUtil, as I remember, can import soldiers from UFO EU into a new campaign in TFTD). Note that "TFTD after EU" would be just an option. The player would still have a possibility to play EU or TFTD as close to the original as possible.
Why would you continue after you beat the game? Where would it then end? I suppose if you just wanted to keep playing, but without a mission and full research, seems little point, you might as well just use Free Battle.

11. Yet more advanced ideas in TFTD part of the third scenario: ex. using "land" weapons (imported from EU) during land missions, or possibility to shoot off a flying sub over the land, and next to have a normal land mission with TFTD creatures, say, in a forest map. If UFO EU and TFTD scenarios were played one after another, XCom should not forget UFO land weapons in the second part, and aquanauts should still have a possibility to use it against all those monsters from the deep on land missions. Too hard to implement? I hope not, in some years maybe :).
I'm not sure I quite follow this, but I imagine importing EU weapons into TFTD when running through OXC should be a piece of cake, will just be copying files and adding rules.

12. And the hardest challenge... Making a fourth scenario with both games in one (still as an option!), perhaps with one developed, logic and interesting scenario. Some ideas: you can have 8 land bases and 8 water bases, first you meet only UFOs, and only next also USOs. It is so because Gauss weapons are a result of further development of plasma technology. Appearing of first subs would be the aliens reaction to your success with UFO aliens (in this scenario the brain on Mars sends a tachyon beam much earlier than in the present games).
Running both simultaneously has also been discussed, but that would be a lot of work - especially if you're wanting to double up bases. I would expect research tree changes would be rather trivial though

At the same time I vote against implementing XCom Apocalypse in this project (even if I really like this game too). But it is just another game while UFO and TFTD are basically the same game. Or maybe implement only some features as an option/advanced modding, like rumbling walls, a possibility to crawl, etc.
I want to add some features - like "fight or flight" (aggressiveness) in the battlescape, but I agree.

And if some day somebody please to make an XCom Apocalypse reimplementation for modern computers, it will be just another project...
I've still not got around to trying it yet, but here:
https://github.com/hallor/ufo

Offline Mr. Quiet

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • Likes: Quiet things. Dislikes: Loud things.
    • View Profile
    • =Open_X_Com= Mods
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 07:20:22 am »
I'd love to see both games merged together!! FU-SION-HA! It'll be one super long ass game, I think. The Research tree will have many more options to choose from and our base would have much more space for both types of buildings. I would love to see this happen in the future! The perfect X-COM game if we all put our heads together to make it happen. I also like Chiko's idea. I think that's a much better idea!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 07:25:28 am by WeOwnTheNight »

Offline grzegorj

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
  • grzegorj and Sherlock are my nicknames...
    • View Profile
    • X-COM
Re: Xcom & TFTD
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 10:11:00 pm »
I've not played UFO 2000 for a while, I assume Lua is for scripting events within the map? There has been talk of adding a scripting language to OXC in the past.

To tell the truth, I have played UFO2000 once or twice but it is not the case. Lua files describe how to make a battlefield of tiles (stored in terrain folder of the game), and of map files (maps folder of the game and additional folders with used-made files, shipped within the archive of a given terrain). Besides, there is a function called MapGenerator which tells the game how to link map files in order to make a correct battlefield.

There are many maps of this kind ready for using with UFO2000. If OXC could import them, it would save additional effort of map makers. In fact, at least some of the maps are so fine that people do make conversions to use them with original games. https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Custom_Maps_%28UFO2000%29 uncovers some further technical details. And the map depot is here: https://area51.xcomufo.com/depot2.htm.

Why would you continue after you beat the game? Where would it then end? I suppose if you just wanted to keep playing, but without a mission and full research, seems little point, you might as well just use Free Battle.

Free Battle is not a campaign. As for me, the charm of XCom games has always lain in strategy, not only in tactical game. This is why tactical-only games (like the Gollops' Laser Squad Nemesis) have never been so popular.

If "the 10th wish" fulfilled, the player would need to accomplish both the EU aim (Cydonia) and TFTD aim (T'leth) to finish the game. Just like WeOwnTheNight wrote, it would be one long campaign. And still not the same as playing the two games one-after-one.

The main difference would be that you could start the second part (TFTD) with trained soldiers and with advanced weapons (from UFO:EU) for land missions (now inaccessible in TFTD). Even now XComUtil (and, as I can remember, also some other game tools) can transfer existing soldiers from UFO into TFTD, so there is such a need among players. Besides, even now there is a division into universal weapons and underwater (only) weapons in TFTD; in this scenario there would also be land-only weapons as well.

In order to balance the game, you might have a little tougher underwater creatures just from the start of the second part, as your soldiers would be trained. On the other side, you would still have weak weapons on underwater missions. Or maybe some of the trained soldiers should not be part of underwater missions (because of medical contraindications?) - now you can have extra fighters but with low psi, in the proposed scenario you would have extra land fighters with low underwater skills etc. Result: longer campaigns, twice as many weapons as in the original game, but many usable in one environment only, more player decisions (who should be sent to a land mission and who to an underwater mission, what weapon should be loaded into the flying sub, etc.), just more interesting game.

Running both simultaneously has also been discussed, but that would be a lot of work - especially if you're wanting to double up bases. I would expect research tree changes would be rather trivial though

I do not say it would be simple but I think it would be a really interesting and expected option. Think positively. I wonder if it really needed making larger bases: TFTD bases are under water, while UFO bases are on land, so hangars and sub pens side-by side? On land? If there is a need to have larger bases, that would be little related to simultaneous game. Or perhaps a special base type in ports, with all 4 levels used, 2 lower for sub facilities, and 2 upper for air facilities. Just an idea.

Is the 8-base limit so hard to be removed from the game? If it is really, so OK, 8 bases totally (including some land, and some underwater, say 4 + 4). It should be enough to win the game. Adding TFTD weapons, subs, aliens to UFO:EU should not be very hard after having TFTD reimplementation finished, and it is quite possible that it would need mainly changes in the ruleset.

Let's wait until reimplementation of TFTD is finished :) Then we will be talking about details of a possible fusion.