Author Topic: Advent - A new X-Com game?  (Read 19211 times)

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2015, 01:37:35 am »
As far as a "mobile" game.... if you are calling it that because its still somewhat based around 2 moves vs turn units,  ... ok.  Strictly speaking, its not mobile at all. Its PC only.  That cuts out alot of the "we have to dumb it down for other platforms" B.S. in my opinion.   And as far as mods go, I thought it was kindof cool that the dev team mentioned that one of the first mods that may come out is a TU system.   So from what I've seen so far, the game is making good progress on moving more toward XCOM roots.  Will it be UFO? nope. TFTD? nope.  Apocalypse?  uh uh.  Will it be better that Xcom2012, most likely.  So that is something to look foward to.  I think it will be great to watch Marbozir and Beaglerush play the heck out of it. :)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2015, 10:29:32 pm »
I bought Enemy Within after it went on sale on the google store. Played it on my phone. Once. Got through on veteran without losing a soldier and then wondered why I would play again. The repetition of maps and scripted geoscape made it lose all its appeal to me. Hopefully they have a more complex geoscape now..

In XCom2012, the path to success is obvious and the same every game. It takes out any incentive to replay. You'll always spam satellites and hire lots of engineers. You'll always stupidly only have 1 skyranger to respond to 3 simultaneous abductions. Such an incredibly forced mechanic to introduce "hard choices" and even that choice is usually obvious because of the rewards.

The game is too dumbed down to be worthy of anything but a "mobile game" qualification. It is simple so you don't need much info, much GUI or even many clicks, which makes it a mobile game. Looking at the video, it doesn't seem to have changed much. Classes still guide your equipment choices, I'd expect obvious direct upgrades and obvious superior specs (if they even keep the choices..). I much prefer the old system we have with just stats and the player can decide what they actually want their soldiers to do.

At least it seems like the enemies actually do something even when we don't see them in this one, unlike in XCOM2012 where they just sat there and waited for you to wake them up. I expect doing one playthrough to see what the story is. Although this time I'll have to find a decent computer...

Offline pilot00

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2015, 03:39:20 am »
The game is too dumbed down to be worthy of anything but a "mobile game" qualification. It is simple so you don't need much info, much GUI or even many clicks, which makes it a mobile game. Looking at the video, it doesn't seem to have changed much. Classes still guide your equipment choices, I'd expect obvious direct upgrades and obvious superior specs (if they even keep the choices..). I much prefer the old system we have with just stats and the player can decide what they actually want their soldiers to do.

I give you permission to call me whatever you like, but the class system was the only thing I liked in that game. Thats said yeah, I would love to be able to give a shotgun to a heavy (example), even if it made his skills useless.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2015, 03:49:36 am »
I might have liked the class system, if the skills were more balanced (admittedly, I did use 2 assault builds, 2 support builds, but only one sniper and heavy) and especially if you could pick/nominate the class when a soldier "graduates" to squaddie.

In which reality do you say: "I need a machine gunner for the squad!" and get 3 guys stepping up answering "I can use a sniper rifle!"? That was insanely annoying.

The variety in abilities was a nice touch, but you don't need classes for that. In my XCom games, I have ~5 defined roles for my soldiers, that are assigned depending on reactions, accuracy and strength (along with available equipment). Only in the vanilla version is there an obviously better setup that you can just spam. With all the mods we have, you can have breachers, scouts, supports, heavies and snipers all operating well and covering each others' weaknesses naturally through equipment choices. And if your heavy gets injured, someone else can pick up the rocket launcher.

Offline kharille

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2015, 04:56:26 am »
Yeah.  The original squad level turn based that Julian created was quite flexible.  Only way back in the times of rebel star raiders were people committed to specific roles like 'laser gun', 'laser pistol', 'grenadier'....  They have 21st century technology and they go back to a play style in 1984.

Don't have the time, I'll probably be finishing other games.  Guess the best I can do is watch metalcanyon or some of the others on youtube...

Offline pilot00

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2015, 02:31:01 pm »
I might have liked the class system, if the skills were more balanced (admittedly, I did use 2 assault builds, 2 support builds, but only one sniper and heavy) and especially if you could pick/nominate the class when a soldier "graduates" to squaddie.

In which reality do you say: "I need a machine gunner for the squad!" and get 3 guys stepping up answering "I can use a sniper rifle!"? That was insanely annoying.

The variety in abilities was a nice touch, but you don't need classes for that. In my XCom games, I have ~5 defined roles for my soldiers, that are assigned depending on reactions, accuracy and strength (along with available equipment). Only in the vanilla version is there an obviously better setup that you can just spam. With all the mods we have, you can have breachers, scouts, supports, heavies and snipers all operating well and covering each others' weaknesses naturally through equipment choices. And if your heavy gets injured, someone else can pick up the rocket launcher.

I quite agree on that, the random element was completely ballocks. It leaves a lot to be discussed about the role of soldiers in the original though. All things considered I find no point in specialisation, except who will get the two heavy weapons and those rotate bases on stat increase needs. Naturally outside of mods, if we put mods in the discussion we would be unfair to the new one.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2015, 06:31:52 pm »
I don't know.. I think it's unfair to consider the new one without considering the old one + mods. XCom 2012 has pistol+rifle+shotgun+heavy (machine gun style)+sniper. The original only has pistol+rifle+heavy (high powered rifle style).

With this limitation, the old one indeed is reduced to everyone in flying suits with heavy plasmas. But with some tweaking to reproduce the weapon selection (ex.: what I did in the XAE), you can easily create a situation where having rifles, heavies, shotguns and snipers as main weapons is superior to spamming any one of them.

The only way XCom 2012 found of doing that is by restricting weapons to classes instead of actually making all weapons attractive. Why can't my sniper shoot a regular rifle if I need him to be mobile for that mission? Or even worse: early game, all the assaults and supports blast away with light plasma rifles, but your heavy and sniper are stuck with laser stuff (if they're lucky) since they can't grasp the concept of using a different weapon...

Of course, that's made more significant by having only 6 soldiers in your 1 plane ( >:( ). If you have larger crews like in the original, specialist roles become more interesting because you can still have a few generalists.

Offline pilot00

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2015, 03:36:00 pm »
I don't know.. I think it's unfair to consider the new one without considering the old one + mods. XCom 2012 has pistol+rifle+shotgun+heavy (machine gun style)+sniper. The original only has pistol+rifle+heavy (high powered rifle style).

With this limitation, the old one indeed is reduced to everyone in flying suits with heavy plasmas. But with some tweaking to reproduce the weapon selection (ex.: what I did in the XAE), you can easily create a situation where having rifles, heavies, shotguns and snipers as main weapons is superior to spamming any one of them.

The only way XCom 2012 found of doing that is by restricting weapons to classes instead of actually making all weapons attractive. Why can't my sniper shoot a regular rifle if I need him to be mobile for that mission? Or even worse: early game, all the assaults and supports blast away with light plasma rifles, but your heavy and sniper are stuck with laser stuff (if they're lucky) since they can't grasp the concept of using a different weapon...

Of course, that's made more significant by having only 6 soldiers in your 1 plane ( >:( ). If you have larger crews like in the original, specialist roles become more interesting because you can still have a few generalists.

I agree with you in everything, but as I said, I compare the product as it is and not as per its tweeking. I can made a Yugo a drag racer with the right amount of time, cash and tweeks but its not a drag racer by design, so comparing it to a pure drag racer seems a bit...out of context to me.
Not the least to say, that despite its tweeks it will never have the performance I wish.

Offline arrakis69ct

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2015, 02:22:12 am »
New post. The boss bradfor come back...

Enviado desde mi ECOO E04 3GB mediante Tapatalk


Offline Dioxine

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #84 on: July 21, 2015, 03:43:47 pm »
I don't know.. I think it's unfair to consider the new one without considering the old one + mods. XCom 2012 has pistol+rifle+shotgun+heavy (machine gun style)+sniper. The original only has pistol+rifle+heavy (high powered rifle style).

And still the original was great while XC2012 was (in my subjective, personal opinion) shitty, meaning, without any mods. Not to mention that you have omitted many, many weapons (stun rod, grenades, AC, Rocket Launcher, smoke grenades, proxies & moar...), making your statement fallacious - in reality, the original has far more weapons than XC2012, especially if you count multiple ammo types. The flying suit + heavy plasma was the endgame situation, true, but it is far from true that this made the other weapons obsolete. For example, sometimes having a pistol... Oh wait. XC2012 soldiers cannot access their inventories, so they cannot have pistols. My bad. Hard to speak about colors and shades with a blind person.

In the days of yore games were judged by how they were 'out of the box', before any patches, mods and DLCs. Moddability can add points in favor of a game, but mods are mods, they haven't been conceived by games' authors and should be judged separately.

I think the developers made strange market decision here, if the title is indeed PC-exclusive. Such simple tactical games are good with portable devices, to play on the train or otherwise to kill time. By saying that it was "advanced enough" I was saying just that, that the game seems good enough for a portable game. I know there are more advanced and more fun tactical games for portables, eg. Disgaea :)
I am not an expert, however. My old mobile had only a single game, which was bowling, Nintendo-16-bit style. My new one has <no games> (damn you, France Télécom!).

As for the jihadist vibe... In that one video I've seen, what is your mission?
To stealthily kill riot police officers who are currently containing a mass protest
It doesn't take more than half a brain to guess what happens next. The riot police, seeing their buddies being killed, opens up against the crowd, with live munitions. Dozens of dead civilians.
Surely, the aliens take a huge PR hit, while the XCom cause gathers followers, but I wanted to kill aliens in this game, not conduct terrorist attacks against humans. What's next? A false flag operation? There isn't a large stretch from provoking innocents being killed to doing the killing by yourself...
So what, you say. Doing dirty work doesn't make you a Jihadist. True. Ideology does. And the vibe I received was different from the original (where civvies were collateral damage, tragic but not decisive in the face of alien invasion). The new vibe was: death of these civilians wasn't even shown. They're neccesary sacrifices for the greater cause. They're martyrs.
Naturally, this is just the vibe of that single mission, and completely subjective opinion on my part. I will write more if I find the time to watch the long gameplay demo.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 03:46:56 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #85 on: July 21, 2015, 05:21:53 pm »
in reality, the original has far more weapons than XC2012, especially if you count multiple ammo types.

Incorrect. EU2012 has more weapons than the original, especially if you consider Enemy Within.

Original: Pistol, Rifle, AC, HC, Rocket Launcher, Small Launcher, Blaster Launcher, Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle, Heavy Laser, Plasma Pistol, Plasma Rifle, Heavy Plasma, Stun Rod, Grenade, Smoke Grenade, Prox Grenade, High Explosive, Alien Grenade (19 items)

EU2012: Pistol, Assault Rifle, Shotgun, LMG, Sniper Rifle, Rocket Launcher, Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle, Scatter Laser, Heavy Laser, Laser Sniper Rifle, Plasma Pistol, Light Plasma Rifle, Plasma Rifle, Heavy Plasma, Alloy Cannon, Plasma Sniper Rifle, Blaster Launcher, Frag Grenade, Alien Grenade, Smoke Grenade, Arc Thrower, Minigun, Flamethrower, Railgun, Particle Cannon, Grenade Launcher, Prox Mine Launcher, Kinetic Strike Module, Electropulse, Gas Grenade, Needle Grenade, Ghost Grenade, Flashbang Grenade (34 items)

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Oh wait. XC2012 soldiers cannot access their inventories, so they cannot have pistols. My bad. Hard to speak about colors and shades with a blind person.

Dioxine, soldiers in EU2012 can carry pistols and switch between them and their primary weapon... Feel free to bash on EU2012, but make sure that you aren't making incorrect claims. ;)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2015, 05:36:12 pm »
Incorrect. EU2012 has more weapons than the original, especially if you consider Enemy Within.

Haven't played the Enemy Within. I'm no masochist to come back for more after the basic game was such a turnoff. But still the original will come on top if you add HWPs and alternate ammo :) I could go on about the usage of these weapons (shotgun + sniper rifle is all you need, plus grenades are strictly limited), but this wasn't the topic...

Dioxine, soldiers in EU2012 can carry pistols and switch between them and their primary weapon... Feel free to bash on EU2012, but make sure that you aren't making incorrect claims. ;)

Whoops, I have commited fallacy myself it seems. Strange, I don't remember these pistols despite finishing the game... I blame Firaxis, because I'm such a hater :)

EDIT: after watching more of this, I'm more and more dubious if getting conquered by aliens in Advent was such a bad thing at all... :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 05:47:13 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2015, 06:25:21 pm »
Incorrect. EU2012 has more weapons than the original, especially if you consider Enemy Within.

Indeed! I only played with Enemy Within as that's what was out when I finally got a phone that could run the app (and at $10, it's a steal for wasting hours at the airport!). Thanks for the backup Hobbes :D[/quote]

Haven't played the Enemy Within. I'm no masochist to come back for more after the basic game was such a turnoff. But still the original will come on top if you add HWPs and alternate ammo :) I could go on about the usage of these weapons (shotgun + sniper rifle is all you need, plus grenades are strictly limited), but this wasn't the topic...
Well, I guess we all have different playstyles.. I played the game with mostly rifles as I disliked the small range of the shotgun in maps that are built to have open ground, the inability of heavies to hit anything and the immobility of snipers (did enjoy snap shot + In the Zone though!).

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Dioxine, soldiers in EU2012 can carry pistols and switch between them and their primary weapon... Feel free to bash on EU2012, but make sure that you aren't making incorrect claims. ;)
Quote
Whoops, I have commited fallacy myself it seems. Strange, I don't remember these pistols despite finishing the game... I blame Firaxis, because I'm such a hater :)
Pistols could actually be quite convenient since they had unlimited ammo. With the right upgrades, they made a potent sidearm for the otherwise immobile snipers.

The scripted geoscape was the biggest turn off for me, battlescape was quite acceptable.

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EDIT: after watching more of this, I'm more and more dubious if getting conquered by aliens in Advent was such a bad thing at all... :)

I wonder what the aliens are doing in the background to justify them being the bad guys still. It would be funny if the end revealed that they were indeed improving the quality of life on Earth and that XCom are just old conservative terrorists.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2015, 07:40:07 pm »
Thanks for the backup Hobbes :D

Eh, that wasn't my intention but you're welcome. I don't mind people criticizing EU2012 as long as they get their facts right. :)

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Well, I guess we all have different playstyles.. I played the game with mostly rifles as I disliked the small range of the shotgun in maps that are built to have open ground, the inability of heavies to hit anything and the immobility of snipers (did enjoy snap shot + In the Zone though!).

One of the things I love about EU2012 is the amount of tactics possible by combining the different class abilities, specially if you're playing with Training Roulette. My current squad consists of 4 Supports + 2 Snipers, most of them with Sentinel or Opportunist or both abilities, with the Supports having also a lot of unique perks (Bullet Swarm, Grenadier, Battlescanner, etc). Add a couple Ghost Grenades and you can setup a lot of crazy ambushes.

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The scripted geoscape was the biggest turn off for me, battlescape was quite acceptable.

To me as well. If you didn't play the original game then EU2012's Geoscape is fine, but if you did play it then you miss the multiple bases, interceptor paths, searching for alien bases, etc.

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I wonder what the aliens are doing in the background to justify them being the bad guys still. It would be funny if the end revealed that they were indeed improving the quality of life on Earth and that XCom are just old conservative terrorists.

This has been already discussed in a thread at the 2K forums about if XCOM would be allowed to target hostile civilians that revealed your position to Advent's forces, and the XCOM 2 developers actually replied to this issue during an interview saying that XCOM are still the good guys on the upcoming game.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 07:43:27 pm by Hobbes »

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: Advent - A new X-Com game?
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2015, 07:42:48 pm »
Ahh... so the Hobbes on 2K forums, UFOpaedia and here are the same person?

Interesting! I never bothered to ask. :P

Miss editing the ol' EU2012 wiki with you; not much to do nowadays, other than Long War stuff.