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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N8 28-Apr-2024 Labyrinthus Noctis  (Read 3841212 times)

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5205 on: February 17, 2018, 11:56:24 am »
Instead of "Hit" I wonder if it's possible to show the exact health-damage done.

Would be very easy to do, but it was deliberately not done.

Offline Ethereal_Medic

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5206 on: February 17, 2018, 01:25:16 pm »
Aww. What a bummer.
Okay I guess it makes sense to not tell it the player. Never heard of someone shot shouting out how much health he lost.  ;D

Offline HT

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5207 on: February 17, 2018, 04:30:25 pm »
Game looks fine right now.  8)

I meant to know if they're taking a while because the plan is to introduce new mechanics and such, like that Hunter-Killer thing I read in this forum.

Okay I guess it makes sense to not tell it the player. Never heard of someone shot shouting out how much health he lost.  ;D

Clearly you haven't played like... ANY JRPG, ever.  ;)

This would make for an easy if somewhat abusable QoL mod, knowing how much health the enemy loses per attack.

Offline RSSwizard

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5208 on: February 17, 2018, 05:38:43 pm »
Clearly you haven't played like... ANY JRPG, ever.  ;)

Im quite fine not knowing how much I caused to the enemy. In fact im fine not knowing how much health my own units have (if it was just a health bar, and the number next to it was the percentage of max health). Id still want to know the actual amount if I pulled up the stats screen but health values are something I dont want to be bothered with, because if someone is hurt there's a good chance im reloading the save anyways.

(in a tabletop rpg system im making, one previous iteration of it didnt have hitpoints it just had health and if you had 100 you were just fine, damage was compared to a Toughness stat and thats what determined how much health you lost. At this point its just about the same but its been simplified to a wound track. Unlike whitewolf the number of wounds escalates based on damage, because the damage values themselves are supposed to be logarithmic)

There was some ability to show the damage range above the weapon or the cursor when you went to attack (ie, 0-72) but I think its kinda superfluous. Most weapons cause 0-200% and even sniper guns do the same even if its "two dices". There arent many non-melee weapons that do 50-150%.

For the case of AP ammunition in specific I think it was handled okay. For anyone griping about this stuff I encourage you to play Fallout 2 and load up "AP" ammo into your guns LOL.

Offline Ethereal_Medic

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5209 on: February 17, 2018, 11:20:20 pm »
I had my fair share of JRPGs like Disgaea and FF7-10 but now the titles are just angst and odd most of the time.
Or too auto-pilot with all imputs done before the actual fight started FF12 *cough*.

If the mods are against a full damage display, so be it.

Fallout 2 is a rollercoaster of difficulty with the early game been save-scum hard to win without cheating your way through.
You can simply run from your home village to this asian town south and just steal everything you want. Mowing down geckos with a gatling laser *kappa*

The AP ammo feels just like the 'better' ammo-type to use as it hits harder while ignoring advanced armor.
The way it's handled here feels right but it's overshadowed by the RNG of XCom and it's 0-200% rolls. Stuff like the kustom handcannon and explosives feel so reliable in contrast to most direct fire.
What makes me uneasy the most are guns with 90% and more TU cost for an aimed shot sporting 0-140 damageroll-range (and more with firing-skill bonus) and simply not doing their job.
Since I have no idea how to balance a game the suggestion of 'adding' the bonus on top of the damageroll at the end might break the weapon.

Offline Pyronymer

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5210 on: February 17, 2018, 11:37:26 pm »
I've been reading this thread and playing this mod for I think a couple of years now but I've registered explicitly to say this.

Transparency in game events is a good thing. Hiding information from the player is a bad thing. This is a game and when it doesn't provide meaningful feedback we basically aren't playing it anymore it's just playing itself without interacting with the player. Knowing how much damage a hit deals is uniformly an improvement, if it were an option I would turn it on and never ever play with it off because playing with it off would be not just stupid but actually a flat out less rich and less tactical experience.

Not having that information means there is no observable difference between 3 hits that all do reasonable damage and take down a target and 2 hits that mostly deal nothing and a lucky critical/equivalent high damage roll that actually overwhelms armor etc... and takes the target out. That's a bad thing. We need to know that difference in order to make the right tactical choices, hell we even need to know that difference to even know that is even a tactically relevant possibility at all.

And precisely what benefit is hiding that information from players supposed to provide? "Well it stops/merely slows down players from being able to know if the weapons they are choosing to use are effective against the targets they choose to use them on!" er... whut? Because that's my guess here.

And since I'm registered and active now and this mind boggling semi relevant thing was also said (somehow in support of hiding damage results despite not apparently mentioning anything of the sort???)

(in a tabletop rpg system im making, one previous iteration of it didnt have hitpoints it just had health and if you had 100 you were just fine, damage was compared to a Toughness stat and thats what determined how much health you lost. At this point its just about the same but its been simplified to a wound track. Unlike whitewolf the number of wounds escalates based on damage, because the damage values themselves are supposed to be logarithmic)
1) So you didn't have hit points. You had... er... 100 points of health that were exactly the same thing. And now its a wound track. Which is also really just another name for basically hit points.
2) Unlike whitewolf? If the go to default comparison point from which your design either varies or not is white wolf based, well lets just say that in my experience that's a gigantic warning flag.
3) "the number of wounds escalates based on damage, because the damage values themselves are supposed to be logarithmic" for a start that just doesn't parse in the way I think you meant it to. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean you have more HP based on damage. But since that's all it actually says... logarithmic damage in what way, in reference to what, other than the wound track that apparently scales with it thus rendering it meaningless?

Damage tracking mechanics are vital fundamental mechanics in well... any games that use them. In TTRPGS especially it is important that they make sense and resolve quickly and efficiently (oh yeah, and completely transparently). If you are including some sort of logarithmic calculation in a game where everyone has to resolve everything and understand the implications of everything without the aid of the kind of automation a computer game can provide it had better have a really good reason for being there. And it absolutely had better not once all things are accounted for average out to a result that could be closely approximated with a system that doesn't use a logarithmic element. Which, considering past experiences with similar TTRPG designs, I'm prepared to bet it does.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5211 on: February 18, 2018, 12:12:42 am »
Not having that information means there is no observable difference between 3 hits that all do reasonable damage and take down a target and 2 hits that mostly deal nothing and a lucky critical/equivalent high damage roll that actually overwhelms armor etc... and takes the target out. That's a bad thing. We need to know that difference in order to make the right tactical choices, hell we even need to know that difference to even know that is even a tactically relevant possibility at all.

If you do that 50 times, you will know. Get fragged, get challenged, get better, feel the sweet sweat as your skill goes up. Git Gud instead of wasting your brain on useless calculations. Seriously I am tired of that crap. What is even the point of playing if you're going to roleplay a fucking Excel sheet. Geez. Lower yer difficulty level and TRY HARD.
Also there is already a richness of information the game provides. Almost all mechanics are exposed and explained somewhere. However, most of the whiners do not KNOW that information, because it's ALREADY TOO MUCH for them to process. And you ask for more info? Don't make me laugh. First learn everything the game provides already. Sure much of it is in collectibles, so you have to go out and ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME to get them. But maybe you're not into playing games at all, so get the hell out and don't come back to this gentlemanly activity.
Seriously, what a bunch of crybabies. I love you all and hence it hurts me as hell.

Offline Bloax

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5212 on: February 18, 2018, 12:14:37 am »
Videogames, as opposed to table-top games - provide the unique opportunity to live and learn; learn how the game is played, without even looking at the guts.

Tabletops, on the other hand - require you to know the rules to be able to play them properly.
You can't just "hit" something and have an outcome be spit at you when you're the one who has to spit it back.

After being in the same situation enough times you will eventually learn what's good for the given situation.
If you've fired something at something ten times, fifty times in total, and it only dropped to three shots two out of the fifty times - it's probably not a very strong weapon against this something with armor/resistances roughly equivalent to other things.

oh and oops too late lol

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5213 on: February 18, 2018, 12:18:03 am »
I've been reading this thread and playing this mod for I think a couple of years now but I've registered explicitly to say this.
Transparency in game events is a good thing. Hiding information from the player is a bad thing.

I like how I implement features to give people more information... and people say that I'm hiding information.
I guess I deserve it...

This is a game and when it doesn't provide meaningful feedback we basically aren't playing it anymore it's just playing itself without interacting with the player. Knowing how much damage a hit deals is uniformly an improvement, if it were an option I would turn it on and never ever play with it off because playing with it off would be not just stupid but actually a flat out less rich and less tactical experience.

I respect your opinion.
There are however many people, who feel exactly the opposite way.

Not having that information means there is no observable difference between 3 hits that all do reasonable damage and take down a target and 2 hits that mostly deal nothing and a lucky critical/equivalent high damage roll that actually overwhelms armor etc... and takes the target out. That's a bad thing. We need to know that difference in order to make the right tactical choices, hell we even need to know that difference to even know that is even a tactically relevant possibility at all.

In first case the hit log says "hit hit hit"
In second case the hit log  says "0 0 hit!"
The words are even translatable, you can make it say "average average average" and "small small critical".
I think that is quite a good compromise.

And precisely what benefit is hiding that information from players supposed to provide? "Well it stops/merely slows down players from being able to know if the weapons they are choosing to use are effective against the targets they choose to use them on!" er... whut? Because that's my guess here.

Immersion.
Simplicity.
Fun.
Curiosity.
Challenge.
Enemy Unknown (hope I don't have to explain this pun).

Anyway, welcome to the forum. And feel like at home :)

Offline Pyronymer

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5214 on: February 18, 2018, 12:45:15 am »
If you do that 50 times, you will know.
And this seems to be the one thing hiding the information does.

Massively artificially bloat the number of times required to know a fundamental basic fact, each and every time with each and every target, with each and every weapon.

So. Why 50 times? What's magic about that number? Even if you knew the actual damage dealt you won't know for sure if a weapon is a good choice after a single hit, it would take at least several, probably more like a half dozen.

What's wrong with that much more manageable number? With the sheer plethora of weapons in the game isn't a half dozen tries per weapon per target type a MORE than sufficient "git gud" threshold (as if "git gud" is ever even anything other than excuse for not having an argument for a poor mechanical choice).

I like choices. If I saw the damage on my latest weapon or against the latest target I could within a reasonable instead of fairly insane time frame make the simple choice of "well this weapon does fairly reliable damage vs this target, I just need to hit it some more" compared to "this weapon only rarely does meaningful damage to this target, this is a gamble, but one I MIGHT win" compared to "this weapon is totally ineffective vs this target". You have to do that fifty times or more before you are allowed to make that choice is not a reasonable demand even on the sheer grind scale of this game it is not a reasonable demand.

The current threshold for this information and that choice is unreasonable. It is more unreasonable because of the massive amount of weaponry and targets, it is more unreasonable again because of the constant changes to damage and resistance types from patch to patch. Which stun weapons are effective against what (or effective pretty much at all) this patch? Well I could know rapidly with some actual feedback, but since that sort of information changes every patch I now need to make how many attacks per weapon per target to RE"git gud" AGAIN?

And lets take a second and think what it motivates you to actually do. Because the threshold for determining the effectiveness of a weapon is so high, and because there are so many weapons it motivates you to simply ignore most of the weapons in the game. Do the stats on that weapon look like maybe they have ANY down side on paper? Well there is no way in hell you are taking it into the field and using it for hundreds of attacks just to see if it actually works well. Hell if you've found just one or two weapons which work well on most targets you are fighting right now? You have a massive game mechanical motivation to stick with nothing but them until you have absolutely obviously all round superior alternatives due to tech advancement, and then it will just be the next one or two effective weapons from that tech level ignoring the rest again.

There is enough inertia and motivation against actually enjoying the game's weapon variety as it is without hiding the direct information that could show you the differences between the weapons in actual application.

Offline Riph

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5215 on: February 18, 2018, 12:51:41 am »
Hey space pirates. What does "XL target" in armor description mean? My first assumption would be that it was some flat modifier to chance to hit when someone aims at you, but just recently I had a marsec operator plinking at me from way beyond his night visual range, and I noticed he was targeting exclusively my power armor troops.

Hid the power armor guys behind some bushes, shots stopped.

Is XL target also effectively negative camouflage when at night?

(Related note: Is this explained in one of the #000 pedia entries in the Journal section? If not, perhaps it should be.)

-- posting twice within three minutes should be a federal offence. Merging posts - Solarius Scorch ---



I like choices. If I saw the damage on my latest weapon or against the latest target I could within a reasonable instead of fairly insane time frame make the simple choice of "well this weapon does fairly reliable damage vs this target, I just need to hit it some more" compared to "this weapon only rarely does meaningful damage to this target, this is a gamble, but one I MIGHT win" compared to "this weapon is totally ineffective vs this target". You have to do that fifty times or more before you are allowed to make that choice is not a reasonable demand even on the sheer grind scale of this game it is not a reasonable demand.



I'm generally in favor of more information. When I play ARK or Borderlands, I immediately turn the pop-up visual damage numbers on.

While I'd appreciate that here, I feel like the information I get when I hold ALT while targeting (shot will do between 0 and 98 damage) is enough information for me to crunch effectively.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 12:57:08 am by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Pyronymer

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5216 on: February 18, 2018, 01:12:59 am »
hold ALT while targeting (shot will do between 0 and 98 damage) is enough information for me to crunch effectively.
If that number accounts for the plethora of weapon, user and target specific calculations the game uses and is final possible damage range I'm prepared to walk away and say "oops, yet another feature of the game nothing ever told me was there that changes everything", and then move on to asking how the hell I get than number with Melee attacks and why the hell what should clearly be the default option is hidden behind wearing my thumb down on the alt key constantly.

But if that number doesn't account for target armor and resistances, weapon modifiers that ignore or even increase target armor, elaborately calculated multiple attribute dependent bonus damage etc... then the number isn't good enough to really be anything other than a red herring that might even make the transparency situation worse.

Though... actually while (the full information version) of that helps a lot with correct weapon match ups... it still doesn't let you know if it is the right decision or not to keep fighting a specific target right now in combat, which actual damage results would tell you.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 01:16:00 am by Pyronymer »

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5217 on: February 18, 2018, 01:13:47 am »
And this seems to be the one thing hiding the information does.

The solution to your "suffering" is here: https://github.com/MeridianOXC/OpenXcom/blob/oxce3.5-plus-proto/src/Battlescape/TileEngine.cpp#L2209

Change this:

Code: [Select]
const int damagePercent = (totalDamage * 100) / target->getBaseStats()->health;
if (damagePercent <= 0)
{
_save->hitLog << _save->getBattleState()->tr("STR_HIT_LOG_NO_DAMAGE");
}
else if (damagePercent <= 20)
{
_save->hitLog << _save->getBattleState()->tr("STR_HIT_LOG_SMALL_DAMAGE");
}
else
{
_save->hitLog << _save->getBattleState()->tr("STR_HIT_LOG_BIG_DAMAGE");
}

to this:

Code: [Select]
_save->hitLog << totalDamage << " ";

Compile and enjoy.

And let the rest of us enjoy the real game. Please.

Offline Bloax

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5218 on: February 18, 2018, 01:17:30 am »
And lets take a second and think what it motivates you to actually do. Because the threshold for determining the effectiveness of a weapon is so high, and because there are so many weapons it motivates you to simply ignore most of the weapons in the game. Do the stats on that weapon look like maybe they have ANY down side on paper? Well there is no way in hell you are taking it into the field and using it for hundreds of attacks just to see if it actually works well. Hell if you've found just one or two weapons which work well on most targets you are fighting right now? You have a massive game mechanical motivation to stick with nothing but them until you have absolutely obviously all round superior alternatives due to tech advancement, and then it will just be the next one or two effective weapons from that tech level ignoring the rest again.
In life, you have the choice between a dozen kind of knives, several dozen types of swords, dozens of axes, and the list goes on and on.
So obviously, you pick something that looks good and see if it works out. If it doesn't, you pick something else up and hope for the best.

Fortunately unlike in life, you have a very clear detailing of what each weapon does - so once you find something that works well, you need only look at what its stats are and look for something that ends up having better stats for a given soldier than the weapon you currently use.


being overwhelming, confusing and redundant is the whole point - it's an attempt to craft a world as confusing as our own, not a game with a game world that makes it explicitly clear it's just a game

Offline greattuna

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99I1 - 26 Dec - Spirit of Christmas
« Reply #5219 on: February 18, 2018, 01:19:33 am »
Hey space pirates. What does "XL target" in armor description mean?

It just means the target is larger. Not much difference in combat (to-hit chance will be the same), unless you want to cover someone else with power-armor-wearing gal.

But if that number doesn't account for target armor and resistances, weapon modifiers that ignore or even increase target armor, elaborately calculated multiple attribute dependent bonus damage etc... then the number isn't good enough to really be anything other than a red herring that might even make the transparency situation worse.

You really want that much information just... handed to you? What the hell.