Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N7 16-Dec-2023 Flying Tiger, Hidden Tentacle  (Read 3684645 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3435 on: October 31, 2016, 03:31:58 pm »
Another problem is that the Pachyderm is hardly a good interceptor; while not slow, it has no dodge bonus. In the early game against a difficult foe, I'd rather choose something more nimble as the lead interceptor, even if it has less HP.

Offline Eddie

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3436 on: October 31, 2016, 05:27:47 pm »
There is an option in the user settings to make dogfights slower/faster.

You misunderstood. I mean make them slower by decreasing dps on both craft. So that engange and disengage speed compared to dps gets faster. Actually, this just happened with the recent updates. Pilots gave Piratez craft more effective hp by giving more dodge, and now enemy shippings got some shielding. The effect is fights last longer.

What's missing is smoother damage distribution by higher fire rate. I just tested that ingame, save is attached so you can try it yourself. It's a Pachyderm, a Jetbike and a Hunter-Killer engaging a Heavy Gunship. Note that this is a save from 0.99C, so you will have to remove the armor from the heavy gunship to have the same conditions. With armor on the heavy gunship that fight is not winable. Use the Pachyderm as lead interceptor and abort each craft as you see fit. Reason to use the Pachyderm as lead interceptor is because the firepower is on the other craft, so if the Pachyderm disengages the damage output won't drop significantly.
Now edit the heavy gunship to have double the fire rate at the same dps. This is not straightforeward, xcom changes fire rate based on difficulty. Heavy gunship has a reload rate of 27, which is actually 19 on Jack Sparrow (game subtracts 2 per difficulty level, so 8 in total). To get a nearly double fire rate on Jack Sparrow, reload rate needs to be 18. Exact value would be 17,5 but I don't think the game can do that. Power goes from 100 to 50 obviously.

Now try this aircombat several times with the different fire rates. I find the one with double fire rate much smoother and more consistent in the outcome. With the higher fire rate it's significantly easier to abort on time to save your craft.


Edit: Did a quick statistic - 10 tries on the aircombat with double fire rate. 8 wins with no losses by aborting on time. Once I lost the Pachyderm because I aborted too late, but won the fight. Once I lost the combat because I aborted on all craft, but no losses. The Pachyderm I abort at roughly 50% hp, the Jetbike I abort after the first hit.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 05:45:35 pm by Eddie »

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3437 on: October 31, 2016, 05:41:45 pm »
Well, I don't fight much in the air... so I won't comment on the numbers.

But just going by the feeling... if Pachyderm, Jetbike and HK met with a Heavy Gunship in dogfight... I would expect all three to be destroyed and Heavy Gunship barely scratched.

But of course, only "in reality"; in game I would also like to see them win... who wouldn't.

Offline Eddie

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3438 on: October 31, 2016, 05:48:10 pm »
In 0.99C you can win that combat, in 0.99D you can't. So all is well.

I attached the save so you can try it yourself.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3439 on: October 31, 2016, 06:07:32 pm »
I updated my calculation spreadsheet with the shipping armor and dodge, and man I'm glad I did the Merc Battleship before the update - that thing is a bear to take down, unless you're spamming all the Avalanches.

I actually like the risk that's inherent in doing these interceptions - for the amount of cash you can make off of that downed Heavy Gunship, it should be able to take you down if you're not prepared.  It's a military vessel after all, so a flying truck shouldn't be too hard for it to run down.  It should be on you to know that this is not a good idea, and that trying to abort if you've already committed against such a well-armed craft is an even worse idea.

Offline Eddie

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3440 on: October 31, 2016, 06:39:04 pm »
So I tried that fight from the save in 0.99D with some modifications. Originally I had Spike Rockets on the Pachyderm, 50 mm Cannon on the Jetbike and 25 mm and 50 mm Cannon on the Hunter-Killer. That is not enough to take down the heavy gunship. Now I swapped the 25 mm Cannon on the HK for a Gauss 50 mm Cannon and gave it additionally two Seagull Launchers. That is enough firepower to take the heavy gunship down. It's risky, but it's possible.

The 12 Seagull missiles would cost 600 000, the Gauss you would need to loot from figthers. If you had another Hunter-Killer with Seagulls you wouldn't need the Gauss this would be a save engagement. I would say the investment needed to have enough firepower is steep enough to be ok with this state of air combat.

Edit: Checked with ohartenstein23's spreadsheet, the Gauss is actually not that much better than the 50 mm Cannon. The second Hunter-Killer with Seagulls makes it a save engagement.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 06:51:51 pm by Eddie »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3441 on: October 31, 2016, 07:09:12 pm »
Obviously small cannons got nerfed hard by that UFO armor, but it's like everyone wanted the air combat to be challenging... So don't blame me, Judases.

Meridian's experiences cannot be used as a measuring tape since he completely neglected air combat (nothing wrong with that, his choice, just let's be objective). The question is, can a Kraken with HK & Pachyderm support defeat a Heavy Gunship, using 105mm missiles, Naval Cannons and any missiles of choice (better than Seagull)? If the answer is "yes, quite easily" then all is well. As far as Cruisers, Destroyers and Battleships go, I expect player to having to engage them with 4 ships, including Kraken, Crab or Dragon as the lead craft, and possibly another Kraken/Hydra to provide heavy pounding, supported by Avalanche/Lancer/Hammermite-totting fighters. Another option are 4 Nightmares or Sabres with maxed out Dodge (approaching effective 90% dodge).

I cannot simply double the refire rate and halve damage since:
a) fastest UFO refire rate is 19 sec; halving that to 10 would result in a refire of 2 sec on Jack Sparrow.
b) player's ships employ shielding as well.

About the pilots having a chance to survive... yeah I was saying it since long time ago. Eject button is quite fine - should be active until you have 1 or more HP. If you go below 0 HP, ejecting is automatic but consequences are more grave, depending on how far below 0 did you go.

What I meant about base transfer being "boring" is that there should be some random elements;
- random return transfer time (weighed so more people involved = faster return);
- chance to suffer injuries, during battle AND crash landing (for each soldier), including fatal injuries. Injuries calculated upon each hit?.
- possibility of spawning a custom mission if modder wants to; the mission involves downed crew, is activated with a delay not to break the air combat, and winning it starts aforementioned transfer (this doesn't need to be implemented quickly).

Example equations:
Return time (in hrs): rnd (50...300) / square root(x). X is number of soldiers on the craft. HWPs and equipment is lost.
Injuries: rnd (0...100)*y
Y = (0.33 - a)*cube root(x)*b, where A is % of hull HP remaining (can be negative), and b is situational modifier  (default = 0.75 if survives/ejects, 1.5 if gets destroyed?)
Eject time (when you push it, your ship stops firing, but battle goes on until ejection is complete): (1+x)*2 game seconds. Ejection cannot be stopped.

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3442 on: October 31, 2016, 07:27:46 pm »
No worries, nobody is blaming you :)
(and for completeness, I was one of the few, who didn't want more challenging air combat)

Question: How can one get 90% dodge on a Nightmare?

craft: 10%
2 thrusters: 18%
best pilots: ~25%

What else am I missing?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3443 on: October 31, 2016, 07:36:16 pm »
The answer: this adds up to about 55 (60 with a Saber Interceptor), vs. 70% enemy accuracy. So I exaggerated, it's more like 80% dodge when all is maxed.

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3444 on: October 31, 2016, 07:41:26 pm »
The answer: this adds up to about 55 (60 with a Saber Interceptor), vs. 70% enemy accuracy. So I exaggerated, it's more like 80% dodge when all is maxed.

Oh, I see, I forgot the enemy accuracy!
Is there a way to find out which craft has what accuracy? Or are they all 70%?

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3445 on: October 31, 2016, 07:45:01 pm »
All 70%, except for Merc ships, which get a 20% bonus, and one Star God ship, which has 106% accuracy.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3446 on: October 31, 2016, 08:13:43 pm »
When crewed by Mercs or Star Gods, UFOs get +20% accuracy.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning to Swim
« Reply #3447 on: October 31, 2016, 08:16:06 pm »
In the ruleset, I only see the accuracy boost under race bonus for STR_MUTON.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D - 30 Oct - Learning not to Drown
« Reply #3448 on: October 31, 2016, 08:19:58 pm »
Oops. I've probably changed my mind at some point.

Edit: fixed version uploaded
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 09:01:11 pm by Dioxine »

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99D.1 - 31 Oct - Learning not to Drown
« Reply #3449 on: October 31, 2016, 09:00:31 pm »
Woo, that Battleship. :P  I just faced a Guild one, and I had to break off and come back with a fresh set of missiles, and then only the last one got it.  That armor makes it much tougher!

Edit:  Definitely need to research the bomb launcher parts to get a sure-fire finisher.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 09:02:20 pm by ohartenstein23 »