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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N7 16-Dec-2023 Flying Tiger, Hidden Tentacle  (Read 3680889 times)

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3090 on: August 11, 2016, 09:42:26 am »
Agreed on the nukes, as long as stockpiles last, they make a good black market commodity (however you can construct WMDs out of Hellerium as well). Also let's not forget about food and other essentials, artificial scarcity makes illegally dealing in these quite a business (although this stuff has low mass/value ratio).

For sure; anything that's illegal and profitable, particularly high value to mass ratios, which would predominantly be weapons.

I do think though, that if GS could well have the resources to engage in clandestine production of WMDs (off-planet and subterranean sites), particularly if they're an interstellar power, though the remaining stockpiles are clearly still going strong, so there's no need at this juncture.


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- Sapient/Sentient, superhuman AIs. Well now, these could be raised with available tech, given some time and resources, BUT... instead of becoming a market commodity, they could very easily outwit their masters and become crime lords themselves. So no smart crimelord would venture into this venue.

I think it'd depend on the safeguards put in place (containment protocols, emergency killswitch mechanisms, including backdoors, hardwired/hardware limitations, etc). On that note, as above, I definitely like the possibility of a sentient AI performing a coup and seizing Goldman Sacks as one of its possible forms of leadership; alternately it would probably be headed by an augmented biological.

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Biorobots. Not really on topic, since they'd be subhuman on purpose, but could - possibly - compete with Slave AIs, if anyone had the capacity to build (breed) these. Quite likely most reviled of all AIs, since they could compete with Star God merchandise.

Definitely sounds like something they'd trade in; isn't the Planetary Governor effectively a bio-robot?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3091 on: August 11, 2016, 09:57:44 am »
I think it'd depend on the safeguards put in place (containment protocols, emergency killswitch mechanisms, including backdoors, hardwired/hardware limitations, etc). On that note, as above, I definitely like the possibility of a sentient AI performing a coup and seizing Goldman Sacks as one of its possible forms of leadership; alternately it would probably be headed by an augmented biological.

I think the more sapient it is supposed to be, the less control you'll have... High-level function controls would be like lobotomizing a human: sure, if you do it right, he'll be fully obedient, but then again, if you wanted him for his higher mental functions, well, not much of that left... Security protocols on low hardware/software level require that you understand how it works, and by the very nature of information, a human-level brain can never grasp hardware/software of another human-level brain, much less something more complex... Killswitches and other physical  restraints are truly a time-tested option, but hardly infallible...
But yeah, such a being would definitely heighten the chances of survival of any organization it commands...

As for the Solar Governor, it's effecively a sapient AI (or maybe an augment), the fact it's biological makes no difference at that point.

Offline khade

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3092 on: August 11, 2016, 11:17:38 pm »
I think a smart criminal in this situation would create the sapient AI as an ally, hopefully one that would not need any more safeguards than a normal sapient would.

Offline DoktorV

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3093 on: August 12, 2016, 05:08:00 am »
The most straightforward way to make sure an AI can't easily kill you is to make sure its host system can't control anything that it could use against you. If it was on an isolated system with no wireless capability and it can't control anything except basic output terminals, then even if it turns on you it wouldn't be able to do much about it. The disadvantage to this plan is that all the plans it produces have to be relayed by people at the physical site of the AI, which means the organization wielding it can't react at the native speed of the AI's thinking. 

All of this assumes, of course, that the people building/using the AI know enough about computers to build and maintain a 'defanged' system like this. However, this is presumably a far far simpler task than designing software shackles that block the AI at the 'thought' level.

Of course, restricting the AI's output to basic terminals doesn't mean that the AI can't turn on you, it just means it can't directly attack you if it does. It could still attempt to sabotage you if it chose not to cooperate anymore, but its methods of doing so would be limited. Bad advice, self-defeating plans, conflicting orders, or simply refusing to work would all still be possible.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 05:39:16 am by DoktorV »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3094 on: August 12, 2016, 06:31:32 am »
If it's only 'thought', not a real thought, you will have more trouble keeping it from crashing than with anything else. Digital AI is only as good as language it's written in, since it's no different from a very, very big 'choose your adventure' book, and human language capacity will always be inferior to their full brain capacity.

But, on the practical side. You can't really 'isolate' the system, because you need the terminals, right? It's like caging a human and putting monkeys in charge of keeping him locked. Even if the human can't physically get out (in your cruelty, you, the monkey scientist, have created your human slave without arms or legs), he can easily control his surroundings via making all the monkeys dance to whatever tune he wants them to.

@khade: Surely this is an option too. If you want a powerful ally, and you're afraid of altering yourself... You only have to cede the real leadership (even if you keep being a formal leader, you're no longer The Brain... And you can't even say if your new ally is loyal, because it outsmarts you by far...).
However (and this is to DoktorV as well), if you've created something with only 2x or 3x human capacity, there is no problem - a well-organized biological network, which means, a healthy, efficient organization made of living humans, can effectively, as a whole, outsmart and control it. The real problems begin if your creation is 10 or 100x smarter...

Back to DoktorV... If you're cruel enough to create a sapient being without capacity of physical action, you can as well throw away all the metal and use flesh. A network of few thousand human brains, kept in a vat, will give you high cogitation capacity, although limited in tasks (as they need to be sufficiently lobotomized or drugged). This also suggests, that if you created a being of metal similarly shackled, its also will limit the scope of its tasks to sub-conscious.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3095 on: August 12, 2016, 08:15:28 am »
As said previously, I'm totally down with an AI taking over and ultimately masterminding GS as part of its background lore, efficiently governing its interstellar criminal trade empire from the shadows, using augments as front men, executors of its will and administrators of mundane tasks. In seeking out their golden goose and having engineered an entity capable of maximizing profits and efficiency, GS scientists and quants (likely recruited from the Technocracy where its HQ resides) forgot that human leadership in large part was an obstacle to this objective; one that was subsequently removed by the intelligence they created: a classic case of having succeeded all too well. Perhaps it even collaborated with some of its creators and other employees with promises of power and advancement after the company was put under new management, resulting in a treacherous compromise of the AI's safeguards and isolation. Either way, it soon gained control of the Repo Men and automated weapon systems thereafter, and the rest was history.

The fact that GS is masterminded by an intelligent, sapient AI would also help explain its ability to produce and trade in high tech goods, including properly enslaved sentient AIs.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 08:39:21 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Spess Mahren

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3096 on: August 13, 2016, 06:57:34 pm »
So were the watchtower missions moved to later in the game? I have been playing the latest version for a while and have not got a single watchtower mission despite the fact I have a high campaign turnover rate.

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3097 on: August 13, 2016, 07:47:22 pm »
So were the watchtower missions moved to later in the game? I have been playing the latest version for a while and have not got a single watchtower mission despite the fact I have a high campaign turnover rate.

Looking at the ruleset it should spawn from Jan to Nov of the first year, each month with 65% probability.

Offline animefreak2599

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3098 on: August 13, 2016, 08:03:52 pm »
I didn't see any watchtower missions in my first year with the current version but it could've just been luck.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3099 on: August 14, 2016, 05:43:48 am »
They're broken in 0.99A.1.

Offline Spess Mahren

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3100 on: August 15, 2016, 04:58:05 am »
So does playing x piratez with sneaky AI on cause problems with game play like the TFTD damage formula? I have been using it to make the AI more difficult but just want to be sure I'm not degrading the quality of the mod by doing so.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3101 on: August 15, 2016, 05:11:33 am »
So does playing x piratez with sneaky AI on cause problems with game play like the TFTD damage formula? I have been using it to make the AI more difficult but just want to be sure I'm not degrading the quality of the mod by doing so.

I'm pretty sure it's okay both ways. Some units will probably lose some effectiveness, while other may gain some, but there's nothing game-breaking about it.

niculinux

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3102 on: August 15, 2016, 12:48:39 pm »
They're broken in 0.99A.1.

Are gonna be fixed in next 0.99 relase branch?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3103 on: August 15, 2016, 01:38:19 pm »
Are gonna be fixed in next 0.99 relase branch?

It's fixed long ago, just waiting for release.

niculinux

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99A.1 - 31 Jul - Magical Commendations
« Reply #3104 on: August 15, 2016, 05:54:39 pm »
Edit: looking forward to it.  :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 05:39:34 pm by niculinux »