Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N7 16-Dec-2023 Flying Tiger, Hidden Tentacle  (Read 3667284 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #990 on: October 16, 2015, 02:37:50 pm »
Rather the other way around, the more stat-based damage is, the more it grows with skill - and like Arthanor said, there are several other factors that already work in favor of melee for veterans. For now, I'm just slightly nerfing cutlass, tech blade and hammer, I don't feel like going all-out revolution yet - would need to make spreadsheets, and I hate those. We'll see if we can get there just by fine-tuning.

@jmf: awesome, thank you! I'll try to make some armor pixelart when I'm done stealing ships from FMP (and making new ones).

By the way, the (real ^_^)  Battleship is finished.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #991 on: October 16, 2015, 06:11:53 pm »
Nice work on the battleship picture! Now I really wonder if a Piratez fleet might be able to take one on..! It looks a lot more like what humans would build out of alien tech now, that's great!

I think Boltgun was suggesting to add some scaling to other ranged weapons so that they compare less unfavourably  to melee ones, not to add more scaling to melee weapons. I also think it would be good for rifles. Not heavy weapons (their low accuracy ensures that there is a difference between good shots and bad ones), but regular rifles scaling to some extent would be nice. Something like 10%, to go with the sniper rifle being 25% (the gun that is designed to allow someone to benefit the most from their aim).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 06:14:17 pm by Arthanor »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #992 on: October 16, 2015, 06:30:05 pm »
Ho-hum... if we limit this to primitive rifles, and make a break-even point at, say, 60 (actually 60..69; so you get +6 damage compared to now at maxed-out Firing of 120...129, and -2 when having 40...49), this might be worth a shot... High-level guns are powerful enough as they are, but rifles are indeed somewhat underwhelmed... but this would require reducing base damage by 6 on all clips, and adding damage bonus formula, and there are so many rifles ;_; (and someone would probably also want a similar Reactions bonus to damage to all Pistols...)... the plus would be that shotguns and smgs would be more reliable for beginners... I'm still not convinced - guns were supposed to be reliable - but I guess low-end rifles and pistols are underwhelming any way, and it'd be kinda cool for veterans to stick to their old guns, simply because the shiny new ones don't provide any stat-based bonus...

Offline XOps

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #993 on: October 16, 2015, 07:41:21 pm »
Love that battleship. The battlescape map for it looks pretty sweet too.  :)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #994 on: October 16, 2015, 08:10:32 pm »
I think pistols just need decent snap accuracy and/or low TU costs to work well as breaching weapons. "Damage" in this situation is scaled by how likely/often you will be to hit, rather than by how hard you will hit. Having 20% more chance to hit from a 40% snap/auto shot makes a big difference in damage output. It's similar to how the HMG is a great weapon for high accuracy gals, since they can land a few more shots that can make the difference (killed a power armored dude with one!).

The problem with rifles is that they have a weird situation of being both low damage and high accuracy since one usually uses them in situations where you have good odds to hit any ways (crouched aimed shots, autoshot from very few tiles away). So accuracy soon doesn't matter much (there is little difference between 80% to hit and 100%, and no difference between 100% and 160% or you're so close for autoshots that you hit even if you "miss"). That's why a different scaling applied directly to damage would be nice, like it is for sniper rifles (and X-bows which are very similar to rifles otherwise, and one of the most damaging early ranged weapons! but we talked about that already).

Also.. I don't think it would be needed to "nerf" the ranged power of most ammos. A 10% bonus is ~6 damage more for a good starting shot, ~4 more for a bad one, but rifles are pretty weak any ways, so I wouldn't see that as a problem. It might just make melee a little bit less of the obvious early choice.

And that's the funny thing:
You say the advantage is reliability, but for a new recruit, melee is usually the best choice because you have some very dependable weapons (and potentially very high starting melee skill), then it just gets better as skills increase and for high end gals, melee is risky but can produce awesome results.

Meanwhile, a rifle has a harder time to hit, and with lower damage has a harder time to hurt so it is not really reliable, and by the time the gal is good at aiming, she would do better swinging some kind of melee weapon with that big strength she got from secondary xp. Then the only use of rifles is giving gals scoped rifle, for the 140% aimed shot to exploit xp training, increase str and either upgrade to a heavy weapon if she had good accuracy, or more likely transfer her to melee where she can do great damage. (This is for early tech, as you get better guns, that might change, but I'm not there yet.. It's a lot more work to get good guns than good melee).

Re-reading this, I realized, maybe it's just a difference in points of view. I like all weapons to be useful and in the XAE tried to make it so one had reasons to use pistols, rifles and heavies (a bit like the weapons by roles mod, but less heavy-handed) and both gauss and lasers simultaneously at that, so that squad composition looked a bit more army like (mostly rifles, with heavies for support and a few up close specialists).

Now that I am starting to think of Piratez a bit more like XCom-40k (since you said you wanted melee to be where the "heroes" go), maybe the aim is not to give gals rifles (who likes bolters in 40k?!), but to make a squad of melee + heavy weapons, which is actually similar to how army lists are written for 40k (build a melee smashy squad, support it by heavy weapons, minimizes your rifles since they are "useless").

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #995 on: October 16, 2015, 09:22:31 pm »
Looks like we're talking about different reliabilities here; you're saying about 'reliably killing bosses' while I was saying about 'reliably surviving (not only boss) battles'. The reality is, a melee charge is inherently risky and dependant on terrain, distance etc. Guns allow you to take pot shots at your leisure, eventually killing enemies as well (and if they don't, you launch a missile or throw a HE pack). You don't run the risk of running short on stamina and people; how many times that assault failed and ended with 3 dead hands, only because they failed their melee attacks and a single enemy survived - and there was not 4th soldier available to back them up. Or just because it was a long charge and there were new enemies in the uncharted territory. With guns, there is no such thing - you can amass as much firepower as you need, you don't run the risk of easily overextending yourself.

The WH40K bolters are a good example, indeed. They're not useless; they actually excel at mowing down weak enemies. They're only useless when you go against tanks or power armor (especially in WH40K roleplaying games, a bolter can't do a jack against an armored Space Marine there), and that's the difference; we use rifles in our wars only because they reliably neutralize infantry; but we don't know powered armor, and we don't enagage armored vehicles and reinforced positions with rifles either. This mod represents a different reality; a reality where small-bore, lo-tech rifles are simply inadequate against armored enemies. I cannot buff their damage only for 'aesthetic' reasons (so the squad looks more like WWII-era commando unit), if this would warp that reality. The heavy weapons - well, at least their ammo is too expensive to perform a classic X-Com missile spam (even though enemies in XCom were all easily killed by rifles, make that laser rifles if we talk about a few armored ones).

As for the heavy weapons - well, they're heavy. Irl this severely limits mobility, but XCom is, and always been, the domain of heroes; Piratez reinforce that notion by flatly stating they're superhuman. So a rifle is best understood as 'small gun' (puny humans be too weak to carry bigger ones! :), and a big gun will always be better in such a heroic setting (even if you pay with some speed and accuracy).

Everything points to a conclusion - early melee needs some nerfing. Maybe I'll reduce the max starting melee a bit, same with starting Bravery (to nerf the anal 'slow melee' approach, where you slowly march your whole party across the map under heavy smoke cover and gang up on single enemies)... Like I said, fine-tuning.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #996 on: October 16, 2015, 09:53:23 pm »
Well.. I wouldn't say bosses. I don't want rifles (especially starting ones) to affect power armor, but I have yet to be in a situation where pinging a guy in personal armor with rifles was my best solution to take him out, which means in my experience, rifles are not useful to take out combat infantry, or we have a different definition of what is combat infantry in Piratez. Today, we use rifles to take out infantry that wears body armor, not (only  :'() people in regular clothes.

But maybe in 2600 rifles are just for taking out "civilians", which actually could make sense, because of progress in fabrics and armor making even Piratez traders clothes as good as 20th century body armor, while the early rifles are still like in the 20th century (and muskets are.. muskets..!) so they can't deal with 26th century body armor. In that case, it works, you can take out GOs/Hostesses/Academicians/Pilots and other easy targets with them and guys like spartans start telling you that you need heavier firepower since they are in "combat dress" even though they are not really wearing armor, so they are at a nice turning point.

So, seems like I still wasn't quite in "Piratez mode". I agree with nerfing the max melee accuracy of gals. Capping at ~80 is probably more than enough instead of 100. Bravery tweaks.. gotta be careful, since you already are playing with it with combat stress. But I think a bit of a lower cap could be ok, maybe with a bit of a higher minimum? Even starting gals should be fairly confident when engaging humans, since they are superhuman ;)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #997 on: October 16, 2015, 10:14:00 pm »
26th century rifle-class weapons (lasguns) are actually pretty good at killing 26th century combat infantry... The only problem is to get them :)

Offline Cristao

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #998 on: October 16, 2015, 10:17:46 pm »
What can I use broken aliens or enemies to do after researching them?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #999 on: October 16, 2015, 10:22:10 pm »
It's in the Pedia (tldr: nothing).

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #1000 on: October 16, 2015, 11:22:21 pm »
26th century rifle-class weapons (lasguns) are actually pretty good at killing 26th century combat infantry... The only problem is to get them :)

*cracks the whip* Come on ya brainerz! Da Dakka ain't working! We needs some more pew-pew!

Offline jmf

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #1001 on: October 17, 2015, 01:06:55 am »
*cracks the whip* Come on ya brainerz! Da Dakka ain't working! We needs some more pew-pew!
don't you know the solution is MORE DAKka!?

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #1002 on: October 17, 2015, 02:23:39 am »
Well.. if the dakka doesn't do anything, more dakka won't either.. maybe the solution is bigger dakka? I could see that working too.. it's just Dioxine said pew-pew :P

Offline jmf

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #1003 on: October 17, 2015, 05:15:32 am »
Hi, i'm happy with the reception of my drawings, but since there is too much gear already i might take time to research ingame to know them well, if i can finish those danm progroms, they last forever!!, anyway for now i'm thinking in some alt designs and minor ideas like items, i made this now: alt runt cargo gear, but i'm not sure, any idea to improve it?, hte result does not convinced me
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 06:08:18 am by jmf »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #1004 on: October 17, 2015, 05:48:19 am »
I'd say there's room for a few extra very early game outfits, to complement pirate and runt ones. It might be nice to have similarly pirate themed ones, but with different attributes?

Boarder: First one to board enemy crafts, face the worst fire, so slightly more armor, no other benefits (but extra weight). (Graphically: Padded clothing? Leather is already used for some other armor)
Rigger: Historically, those who climb the rigging and shoot from above into the fight below. Similar to pirate armor but bonus to shooting instead of melee. (Graph: Sort of light but also sort of tight so it doesn't get in the way)
Flingers: For the strong armed who throw stuff around. (Graph: Bandoliers/belts with bombs, no sleeves)
Hoard watchers: Not sure where this would go.. but.. Maybe more ostentatious garb, those who guard the treasure so.. boost in bravery/morale/combat stress as they won't give up?
Cutpurse/looter: Those who go for the other's hoard. Faster movement? Short pant legs and small shoes for nimble running, bag over one shoulder to put loot in.

Just some random musing of piratey roles to complement the swashbuckling outfit we have. Feel free to ignore them ;)