Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - K2 - 2 Nov - Ice Ice Cool  (Read 1201570 times)

Offline Abyss

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6660 on: February 02, 2019, 08:08:53 am »
One more suggestion regards the Craft Lascannon: Once you get it, there is a huge advance in overall geoscape score, due to the known reasons (no ammo, high impact strength, almost 100% accuracy with strong firing gals, medium range).
Literally it makes all the cannon guns and most missiles obsolete. Even the high-tier ones. Even the Heavy slots. What for the nuke warheads? No way, the CLC is much better :o

IMHO, it should be positioned lower than the trophy Gauss Cannon and Reticulan PC.
Say 10 DPS instead of 36, accuracy nerfed to 60%. Assuming that Charger laser makes 6 DPS, it makes sense. Besides, the level of technology gals possess at the moment of CLC aquisition is supposed to be lower than Reticulans and Major parties.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 08:12:22 am by Abyss »

Offline Zharkov

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6661 on: February 02, 2019, 11:26:29 am »
Besides, the level of technology gals possess at the moment of CLC aquisition is supposed to be lower than Reticulans and Major parties.

You are aware that schizotech is a key design element of piratez?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6662 on: February 02, 2019, 12:33:20 pm »
One more suggestion regards the Craft Lascannon: Once you get it, there is a huge advance in overall geoscape score, due to the known reasons (no ammo, high impact strength, almost 100% accuracy with strong firing gals, medium range).
Literally it makes all the cannon guns and most missiles obsolete. Even the high-tier ones. Even the Heavy slots. What for the nuke warheads? No way, the CLC is much better :o

Do you have numbers broken down to back these claims?

Offline Abyss

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6663 on: February 02, 2019, 12:58:43 pm »
Do you have numbers broken down to back these claims?
Please specify the evidence needed
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 02:39:17 pm by Abyss »

Offline LytaRyta

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6664 on: February 02, 2019, 02:33:33 pm »
Lol
btw.what are thoese "Pew~pews" ?


and pls.dont touch on Craft'LasCannon (or even Gatling LasCannon), dont nerf.it, ~ I just cant play the game then! ;D lol

Offline Abyss

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6665 on: February 02, 2019, 02:52:17 pm »
Lol
btw.what are thoese "Pew~pews" ?
Nukes  ::)

For the Lascannons - nerf is a must hence they are non-dependant on ammo. See you just fly around and stalk big ships with no cost, whereas the same amount of Ramjets don't even got a chance to force the equal ship. And that is, subsequently, for a couple: 22K*24 = 528K for the ammo. Half a million evaporated through the barrel. And two Lascannons made roughly out of 4 hand-held Heavy Lasers bring down 2-3 supply ships in a single combat mission.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 02:54:21 pm by Abyss »

Offline Zharkov

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6666 on: February 02, 2019, 02:57:42 pm »
Nukes  ::)

For the Lascannons - nerf is a must hence they are non-dependant on ammo. See you just fly around and stalk big ships with no cost, whereas the same amount of Ramjets don't even got a chance to force the equal ship. And that is, subsequently, for a couple: 22K*24 = 528K for the ammo. Half a million evaporated through the barrel. And two Lascannons made roughly out of 4 hand-held Heavy Lasers bring down 2-3 supply ships in a single combat mission.

Okay, I start to see the problem. However, I think that in part this works as intended. The weapons you need to buy ammo for are intentended to be inefficient. But maybe not ineffective as in your example.

Offline Zippicus

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6667 on: February 02, 2019, 03:50:22 pm »
Nukes  ::)

For the Lascannons - nerf is a must hence they are non-dependant on ammo. See you just fly around and stalk big ships with no cost, whereas the same amount of Ramjets don't even got a chance to force the equal ship. And that is, subsequently, for a couple: 22K*24 = 528K for the ammo. Half a million evaporated through the barrel. And two Lascannons made roughly out of 4 hand-held Heavy Lasers bring down 2-3 supply ships in a single combat mission.

I don't even....  lol.  First, don't shoot down supply ships, they land (although we may be talking about different things since enemy bases get 1 supply ship not 2-3).  Second, lascannons pretty much suck, their ONLY redeeming feature is the ammo, although I'll admit that ramjets suck worse.  They're only good for shooting down ships that won't blow your ass out of the sky no matter what weapons you're using.  Are you sure you're not thinking of plasma cannons ?  Those are pretty badass.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6668 on: February 02, 2019, 04:34:47 pm »
The main point: challenge falls to zero since then you make a couple.

lascannons pretty much suck, their ONLY redeeming feature is the ammo, although I'll admit that ramjets suck worse.

Should CLC be better than Gauss, that is the question.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 04:39:00 pm by Abyss »

Offline Zippicus

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Re: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6669 on: February 02, 2019, 04:46:57 pm »
The main point: challenge falls to zero since then you make a couple.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.  You're not going to be able to shoot down any real ships with lascannons.  I mean great you can mow down crap ships sure, but almost any other weapon can do that too.  Hell most ships you don't even have to shoot down, they'll land somewhere and you can take them out with 0 ammo used from any weapon.  The ones you actually NEED to shoot down will murder you if you go in packing lascannons.

Offline Dakkdakk

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6670 on: February 02, 2019, 05:26:54 pm »
Ye, the more serious enemy craft will blow you out of the sky if you try to take them down in a dick measuring match with lascannons. They're just a cheap and fast way to take down the more common and-or smaller ships.

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6671 on: February 02, 2019, 06:07:01 pm »
In 0.99J1 we  have 9  battlescape tracks and 12  geoscape. These  now have each its own name while before being lsbelled with prgressive number. The new track is "airrocks" in the geoscape. I would have  preferred anyway that the divergin paths topic may lead to slave soldiers as an alternative, like paesants; actually the "fighting force" bootypedia article seems to suggest that player shoul not enroll mercenaries, like the slave soldiers seems to be labelled. But whatever!!

Edit: these tracks are somewhat '90 feeling, especially the "astrorock" one, but my preferred one is "Vanity set" in geoscape and "synthetic dresms" in battlescape

Edit: 2: To complicate/make things more interesting, i thinck the initial "recruitment" topic should allow also brainer and runts recruitmen, not only the hands one, that would make things have more sense; right now the former ones are avaiable at the start
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 12:55:57 am by niculinux »

Offline cc

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6672 on: February 03, 2019, 02:30:22 am »
Do you have numbers broken down to back these claims?
Unless something major has changed in the last few (2 or 3) versions, the Lascannon has average DPS (~3.4, rank 15-ish) for a trained pilot. For an untrained pilot it places higher (~2.7, rank 10-ish). However, this assumes that the enemy craft is unarmored - in other words, the Lascannon is an excellent weapon for taking out the trash and/or doing pilot training, but against anything armored, it's useless. Okay, it is better than Ramjet and Gauss Cannon, but that's because those two suck. If there's a complaint to be had, it's that the Ramjet is useless when you get it: given the range of most enemies, 50 isn't a (big) advantage and the Ramjet has atrocious damage output (worst DPS of all heavy weapons). A slight damage bump to 45 or even 50 would make it a weapon that one can actually consider to use.

EDIT: Typo.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 03:04:43 am by cc »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6673 on: February 03, 2019, 03:01:16 am »
Please specify the evidence needed

Not evidence but honest comparison, by numbers, I don't want to go untangling this mess with emotional claims as the only backing. Getting lascannons isn't easy, mind you, compared to the other weapons you mentioned (in passing, again, nothing concrete).

Ramjet is potentially your first heavy weapon (other is Quadcannon), costs you almost nothing but money, and is sold by shady characters. Figures it's crappy (maybe bit too much indeed). It does outrange all crappy enemy ships, tho.

As for gauss cannon, it is still lower on the list than lascannon, you can loot it pretty easily off enemies. If it sucks too much, we can think about buffing it.

Edit: 2: To complicate/make things more interesting, i thinck the initial "recruitment" topic should allow also brainer and runts recruitmen, not only the hands one, that would make things have more sense; right now the former ones are avaiable at the start

It is not doable. I won't adress the rest of your post as I did not understand it.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 03:03:15 am by Dioxine »

Offline Abyss

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J11 - 27 Jan - Slaves, or Soldiers?
« Reply #6674 on: February 03, 2019, 04:28:02 am »
Not evidence but honest comparison, by numbers, I don't want to go untangling this mess with emotional claims as the only backing. Getting lascannons isn't easy, mind you, compared to the other weapons you mentioned (in passing, again, nothing concrete).

Ramjet is potentially your first heavy weapon (other is Quadcannon), costs you almost nothing but money, and is sold by shady characters. Figures it's crappy (maybe bit too much indeed). It does outrange all crappy enemy ships, tho.

As for gauss cannon, it is still lower on the list than lascannon, you can loot it pretty easily off enemies. If it sucks too much, we can think about buffing it.

The base for CLC nerfing suggestion is pretty much the same as for the Impaler. Aquire of the latter leads to the drastical change in the overall strategy of the game, that's what implied. For the Impaler it was too easy to lay down the strongest enemies (again, no ammo and supreme accuracy) in 2-3 shots.
For the CLC the change consists of switching to the globe, with possibility of the complete ignoring of the battlescape missions (average score of 5000 makes fun of the Pogroms and Cullings too). The ammo-independency makes this part of the Piratez non-Challenging, results in the fast income growth. And then you just find yourself with top-tier tech and even less challenge.

CLC is indeed not the first weapon to equip the ship with, but it is not that hard to aquire. The only component usually missing is Heavy Couplings, not actually that rare.

The ammo load of 50 charges each gives a possible 3600 DP for a interceptor with two, and 7200 DP for a interceptor with four. Again, with fine accuracy and fast reburst. Another competitive option - the missiles - do not deal the instant damage, it takes time to reach the target, countrary to the beam. 

For all you guys who tell that CLC suck: you are correct within the absolute scale. But for the moment it is a balance-changing weapon for almost no price. Medium interceptor with two CLC's brings down the Heavy Freighter and has a good chance of bringing down the Science Vessel. In my opinion - it is not balanced for the swarm-tactics which has huge potential within this game.

For the summary, my suggestion is that Gauss seems lacking the range and piercing potential, Ramjet is suggested to be buffed for it's price only.
And CLC must have an operation price, compared to 4-6K/shot. At least within the electricity bills :D
Or nerfed to 10-16 DPS, as mentioned.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 07:33:23 am by Abyss »