Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N7 16-Dec-2023 Flying Tiger, Hidden Tentacle

[Dioxine]

It's not as elegant in OXC. Basically cover doesn't matter as if you roll a 'hit', you will hit, even if it's a single pixel visible - and chances to hit aren't influenced by cover. HOWEVER, the trajectory calculation is glitchy and thus cover does sometimes work despite you roll a 'hit' (hence all the misses at 200% acc), but in no way in any real-like manner (eg. kneeling in open field gives you *no* advantage against enemy bullets, so does kneeling behind a boulder UNLESS the enemy is shooting from a lower elevation).
Also it's worth to note that enemy fire hitting cover are usually missed shots, if you were saved by the combined powers of cover & glitchy algos, the shot will often appear to just go wide (cover caused an error in trajectory calc).

[yrizoud]

AFAIK, in case of "success" roll, the shot is fired with a minor random deviation. At short range and with no cover, it will never be enough to cause a miss, but if the target has partial cover near the 'center of mass', the random variation is as likely as not to hit one of the obstacles in the way.

[Arthanor]

There are several "target points". The game does not aim for the center of mass, it aims for the closest exposed target point to the center or something. Sometimes, that target point actually is obstructed when firing, leading to the bug that lets you fire diagonally into an UFO but always hit the UFO wall, or take shots and always hit the top of a hill instead of the target in the valley. Most of the time, the aiming point is far enough for cover that a hit is a hit (unless you are firing at a target that is very far away, in which case the small deviation on a hit might take you off target). Very, very rarely, you are in such a position that the target point is close ish to cover and things behave realistically.

We had a whole discussion with volutar on this, and his proposed improvement of the aiming system. It was a nasty one full of misunderstandings, but it was also enlightening about the aiming/cover mechanics (or lack thereof).

XCom: EU and TftD are very elaborate in their way to calculate projectile trajectories and aiming, but not very good at all at handling cover.

[Dioxine]

This is true but Volutar's point was that OXC is handling trajectories worse than the OG. While cover was useless in the OG, at least the game calculated trajectories better.

And like Arthanor said, it is not aiming for the centre of mass, and it doesn't really mean how much the target is obscured. If the to-hit roll is successful, a 'perfect' trajectory is chosen.

[Countdown]

kneeling in open field gives you *no* advantage against enemy bullets

Really? All the TUs I've wasted getting down and standing up. Even the original rulebook says kneeling will make you less likely to get shot. Good to know though because that is a lot of wasted TUs each turn kneeling down for no reason.

The advantage of kneeling is that your soldier is less visible to the aliens and fires more accurately.

[Dioxine]

It is true. It does make the soldier less visible. I'm just saying that it only makes sense if kneeling makes you completely invisble to the enemy (eg. kneeling behind a ridge or a hill). The manual doesn't say it neccesarily makes aliens less likely to hit you. Also the accuracy bonus is nothing to scoff at.

[Countdown]

It is true. It does make the soldier less visible. I'm just saying that it only makes sense if kneeling makes you completely invisble to the enemy (eg. kneeling behind a ridge or a hill). The manual doesn't say it neccesarily makes aliens less likely to hit you. Also the accuracy bonus is nothing to scoff at.

Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes, the accuracy is beneficial of course, but a lot of time I kneel at the end of my turn for defensive reasons even if they don't have enough TUs for a snap shot. I didn't realize that this is pointless if you're still 100% visible.

[Dioxine]

You can actually use partial cover defensively, but common sense is useless - you need to know how the glitches work instead Eg. kneeling behind something if you have a height advantage usually makes the enemies miss their shots due as no trajectory might exist but the algorithm thinks one does. Also Skyranger's ramp is a pretty good partial cover as the algorithm is stupefied by its shape, that divides targets into 2 parts. I'm sure more exploits exist.

100% cover however is frail with its own dangers - if you were seen, enemies will change position to one where they can shoot at you. It can be exploited if that position is inside door or behind a corner - all shots that try to 'cut the corner' will miss.

[Boltgun]

If cover does not help, I must have been really lucky. A fence or a tree does not help at all, but an accumulation of bushes, rocks and other obstacles confused the trajectory calculation enough to take bad angles.

But that explains why I cannot defend myself in cities while I always obliterate the enemies in jungles.

[Solarius Scorch]

Is Volutar's code still flying around somewhere?

[Arthanor]

He was suggesting to code it but because the discussion went all kinds of crazy he decided to work on something else, then he left. I don't think he ever coded it.

His proposition for aiming at the center of the largest visible area plus some added deviation on hits would have made cover actually behave properly. If you can diminish your target area to smaller than the scatter from deviation around a hit, you are less likely to be hit. That'd be perfect.

[Dioxine]

All right, 0.98A is finally here. First and the biggest change by far are 5-level Hideouts. For better or worse, they're with us now
Nerfhammer strikes again, albeit not overtly hard. The victims are knives and hunting bows, which have the same power and accuracy but got some negative qualities. Also longbows take 45, not 40 TU to shoot, but are as awesome as ever.

To even things, all advanced weapons are now better. In general, they will be more likely to stun a target if they fail to kill it. Also, high-calibre guns now damage armor even if fail to penetrate. The biggest winner is acid, which now always damages armor and causes moderate Morale damage (not as much as fire though). Also some heavy melee weapons now damage armor (hammers, power claws). Only lasers got nothing.

Also! A magic shop opens, offering some interesting merchandise to those who want to try their hand at entry-level magic! You don't even need VooDoo schools for that!

[Ridаn]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

Thank you very much for all your time and effort poured in this project, again.

[Cristao]

You nerfed my ninja stars!! WAHHHHH!!! Dioxine and 5 levels - GULP!! More for the kill eh!

[LexThorn]

Dioxine, are you planning to add advanced VooDoo armor? Is it in nearest plans or in distant future?