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Author Topic: The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion  (Read 13358 times)

Offline ivandogovich

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The "Please Stop Using 1.0" Discussion
« on: January 15, 2015, 11:13:14 pm »
I felt it was not appropriate to continue thread jacking the Xeno Ops thread with this discussion, so I thought I'd continue it here. :)

See, ivandogovich? This poor fellow can use old version. He's compiling coz he's on the X. Every mod maker should chase moving target, or alternatively - always stay on outdated grey area. I think modsite should use that kind of categories - actual/outdated. Frankly pretty rare builds are affecting mods not back-compatible way, warboy cares that. But that doesn't mean that modmakers shouldn't check and update their mods! New version often has even more modding features. Let us take mapgen scripting. It allows for really diverse maps to be created. Ask Hobbes or robin. They stop using 1.0 long ago.

And another thing. Every modded or lper who's using 1.0 doesn't really help project to become better. At the best they simply advertising.

I'm just asking you, people to stop using 1.0 version. And stop using mods which aren't working with current version. It's the only way to move WITH the project. Not behind.

Sorry for offtoping.

Isn't xeno oper mod compatible with the nightly?

Thanks for clearly stating your view point, Volutar.  :)

Two responses:

Advertising is good! Its what keeps projects alive even if they are advertising something that is no longer current. ;)

At this point I won't stop using 1.0.  I am 73 episodes into a series that I will finish on the same platform that I started.  I'm quite happy with the way it plays and the entertainment that it provides.  I will probably give the nightlies a run when I get done with it, because there are a lot of excellent features that I want to try out. :)

You say that those playing 1.0 don't help make the project better.  That is true.  They are not beta testing the nightlies.  That role is important, but many players don't want to or don't know how to update bug tracker etc.  However, if they play 1.0, it can increase their interest and draw them further into the project.  Like me, they try to find some way to give back to the project, be it through graphics mods, translations or what ever. 

I think you are right in that the stance of the development team needs to be clearly stated.  On the downloads site and here on the forum,  the message should be clear that 1.0 is not supported as it is outdated.  Bugfixes for 1.0 are not being done, as these are in the nightlies.   Likewise, modding should keep up with the Nightlies if any support is expected from the development team.  I don't know if you speak for SupSuper and Warboy, but I respect the position, nonetheless. :)

Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 04:25:27 pm by ivandogovich »

Offline Yankes

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 11:42:42 pm »

Offline hellrazor

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 11:49:26 pm »
Maybe just release new milestone?

But i must say i prefer to be on the egde with github built :>

Offline alienfood

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2015, 01:02:27 am »
I nominate this thread as the "I'm using git X and it is working nicely for me" thread.

I am using git 2015-01-02 14:04 and it is working nicely.

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 01:04:45 am »
Ivandogovich, please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers(I mean in-between the series, with few exceptions)? It's not changing gameplay. All these updates are about improving, making it less ugly/buggy/crashy(excluding last one I guess?). One of the recent fixes was about offscreen walk. It was quite ugly implementation before and I made is as close to perfect/vanilla as possible (considering panel coverage). You aren't casting your episodes online. You're prerecording and processing them before uploading to YouTube. It won't be any risk in your case at all. You always can interrupt and rollback version and then continue. Really I can't understand the logic. It really looks like some misbelief.  :P
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:09:46 am by volutar »

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2015, 01:23:20 am »
New milestone? It will become obsolete after few weeks of active bugfixing. There is no point of releasing milestones except for some psychological shit AND some exotic not really popular platforms builds. After each bug found in milestone and fixed - this milestone assumed 100% obsolete. And there is no point to refer to it anymore, except for like some snapshot for historical review of old bugs.

You may already assume current nightly as milestone.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:29:24 am by volutar »

Offline Meridian

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2015, 01:48:33 am »
Hi Volutar, all,

I really don't want to cause any flamewar, frustration or anything, but I share most of ivan's opinions... as an LPer, as an OpenXcom fan and also as a developer. It is really not that hard to understand them, if you just try a little. You don't have to agree with them, nobody is asking for that, just try to understand.

1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.

2. What is wrong about a new milestone becoming obsolete after few weeks? I cannot play with 1.0 and I cannot play with the nightly... the old nightly, which I need to use cannot even be downloaded anymore from the website... this will be my first LP, where I will have to tell to my viewers: "sorry guys, you cannot play along the same version with me, because it is fricking complicated (for a normal human being) to make it run"... not all of us are developers you know (I am, but 99.8% of my viewers are not)

3. This will sound stupid, but try to just get the point, don't take it literally... not supporting 1.0 and not having 1.1 or 2.0 is as if Microsoft said Windows 8.1 is not supported anymore, because there is a developer preview version of Windows 10... or does that sound "normal"?

4. I am really sorry, but not everybody can be a beta tester... I just don't have time for it. I am contributing by advertising on YT as you said... and I have also donated to OpenXcom (more than I have payed for any other game).

In any case, I appreciate the work you guys are doing... as far as I understand, in the last year it is basically just Warboy and Volutar, who are making this happen... I really wish you guys all the best and I will support you in any way I can... even though we might not agree even on some basic stuff. It is YOUR project, you can do it any way you like... please don't stop.

Cheers,
Meridian

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 02:06:34 am »
Ivandogovich, please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers(I mean in-between the series, with few exceptions)? It's not changing gameplay. All these updates are about improving, making it less ugly/buggy/crashy(excluding last one I guess?). One of the recent fixes was about offscreen walk. It was quite ugly implementation before and I made is as close to perfect/vanilla as possible (considering panel coverage). You aren't casting your episodes online. You're prerecording and processing them before uploading to YouTube. It won't be any risk in your case at all. You always can interrupt and rollback version and then continue. Really I can't understand the logic. It really looks like some misbelief.  :P

Why do LPers like a milestone? (this is the same question as: please tell, why changing versions to more modern is not really done by lpers?)
1. Milestones don't move.  They stay the same, so that viewers can play the same version as the producer.  This is a pretty common practice by YTers.. They post the versions they are playing and the mods that they are using, and many even post save games for their viewers to use.

2. For some users, Nightlies seem hard.  (Yeah, call it psychological BS if you will, but I've had to help users who couldn't even figure out how to install mods).  This is probably erroneous. 

As far as recording, and re-recording on crashes if necessary.  Yes, this is possible.   Having done that a couple times when encountering bugs, I can attest that it is challenging.  Challenging, maybe frustrating, but possible.  At some point it becomes no longer worth it.

Misbelief, sure.  "Nighltly" often means the latest alpha build.  These are often buggy.  Most producers and many players don't want to play the latest bleeding edge version of anything.  They want to play something that has been tested and verified.  Therefore they look to the milestone. 

Again, you are asking for the viewpoints of the user/modder/advertiser(LPer) community, and why they don't play nightlies.  These are some of the reasons. :)

I understand the developer point of view and fully support the efforts of the dev team (And thankyou, personally, for your efforts in the project).  I can understand the frustration that stems from users complaining about bugs in old versions that have been fixed months ago.  I can understand the frustration with users complaining about out of date mods that break on new nightlies.  I think its good that we find these mod issues because it puts a fire under the mod makers to keep their mods up to date.

Thanks for your thoughts. :)

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 10:03:04 am »
Thanks for the response. I will try to constructively comment it.
1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.
fair point. Just two comments: FMP is not coherent itself. It has pretty large amount of different inconsistencies and imbalances, no matter which oxc build you'll pick. Second, it's not about using latest nightly. Nightly of month ago or 6 months ago is anyways better than 1.0.

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2. What is wrong about a new milestone becoming obsolete after few weeks? I cannot play with 1.0 and I cannot play with the nightly... the old nightly, which I need to use cannot even be downloaded anymore from the website... this will be my first LP, where I will have to tell to my viewers: "sorry guys, you cannot play along the same version with me, because it is fricking complicated (for a normal human being) to make it run"... not all of us are developers you know (I am, but 99.8% of my viewers are not)
Why not to upload old nightly somewhere publicly? Openxcom.org I guess is short on disk space(I'm not sure it might be caused by some other reason). There is no problem of putting some sort of public archive of all versions. Why not in openxcom.com? It's the site which is provoking of using mods - let it provide it with latest compatible version as well. In the worst case you can make a pack with all necessary folders with all installed mods you are using and upload it somewhere.

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3. This will sound stupid, but try to just get the point, don't take it literally... not supporting 1.0 and not having 1.1 or 2.0 is as if Microsoft said Windows 8.1 is not supported anymore, because there is a developer preview version of Windows 10... or does that sound "normal"?
If you like to take ms example - nightlies are not new versions, not service packs, they are simple updates which are coming pretty damn often for ms. For openxcom they are tested before being committed. But not vs mods. Because mods are not devs problems. They have their respective authors and should catch up for recent updates. Otherwise they die (in terms of obsolete software). In this case support is often recommending to use something similar.
Of course sometimes nightly can have some side bug caused by not proper testing. But it happens not that often as you say. And you always can rollback to previous version.

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4. I am really sorry, but not everybody can be a beta tester... I just don't have time for it. I am contributing by advertising on YT as you said... and I have also donated to OpenXcom (more than I have payed for any other game).
It's not about being beta tester. Nightly is not a beta nor an alpha. It's prerelease. It's always Release Candidate if you will. Number of bugs in last milestone is not comparable with nightly. When playing 1.0 you are ten times, hundred times more beta tester than if you'd be playing the nightly. Milestone always has more bugs than the nightly. And in case of milestone, your complains (if any) wouldn't be heard because the bugs you will encounter in 99% cases are fixed long ago.

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in the last year it is basically just Warboy and Volutar, who are making this happen...
Nope. It's Warboy and SupSuper. I'm just quality/vanilla advisor and occasionally making code fixes(not through the git, thus my name is just not there). Not to mention the role of pain in the arse.

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 10:24:44 am »
1. Milestones don't move.  They stay the same, so that viewers can play the same version as the producer.  This is a pretty common practice by YTers.. They post the versions they are playing and the mods that they are using, and many even post save games for their viewers to use.
I already responded to this one. In two words - upload your configuration+exes! whole game itself just without vanilla folders. In months 1.0 will be not downloadable. So better take care on that too.

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2. For some users, Nightlies seem hard.  (Yeah, call it psychological BS if you will, but I've had to help users who couldn't even figure out how to install mods).  This is probably erroneous.
extract archive contents to game folder is hard? And how are they gonna setup mods? Extract whole game with reinstalled mods is times easier than installing just TWO mods.

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Misbelief, sure.  "Nighltly" often means the latest alpha build.  These are often buggy.  Most producers and many players don't want to play the latest bleeding edge version of anything.  They want to play something that has been tested and verified.  Therefore they look to the milestone. 
Wrong. Nightlies are RC.
Wrong. They are hundred times less buggy than milestone.
Wrong. Milestone is not a bit more tested than any other nightly.
Do you think we are play testing some "chosen" nightly for months to be sure it has no bugs? Wrong! We are simply calling this nightly a milestone. That's all. It may cause lots of crashes. And then quick new milestone get released. With same number. There was number of milestones with hilarious bugs which were fixed in month-two after. 1.0 is not an exception.
If you want stable - take a month or two of pause after milestone. And grab the nightly. At this point most of milestone bugs being discovered and fixed. Almost no one is testing nightly beta and almost everyone is testing milestone alpha.

It's like with windows release. Release version is always raw and unfinished. And there is good reason to wait until service pack. At least that was the upgrade tactics before ms got their new satanic version releases. It looks like they tired of making cumulative service packs. Always releases with bunch of fresh new bugs.

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Again, you are asking for the viewpoints of the user/modder/advertiser(LPer) community, and why they don't play nightlies.  These are some of the reasons. :)
I hope I made some myth busts here. Because this reasoning you guys are following really mostly the myths.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:03:42 am by volutar »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 05:36:54 pm »
@Volutar  Thank for all of your responses. :)

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<snip> If you like to take ms example - nightlies are not new versions, not service packs, they are simple updates which are coming pretty damn often for ms. For openxcom they are tested before being committed....

It's not about being beta tester. Nightly is not a beta nor an alpha. It's prerelease. It's always Release Candidate if you will.

Thanks for the clarification.   Who are the testers?  The ones that test the nightlies before they are committed?

Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline Hobbes

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 06:36:40 pm »
1. I am starting a "new" LP in one week. I will play FMP modpack, which is not compatible with the nightly... and I cannot change the fact that I play FMP and I cannot change the fact that I start in one week and cannot wait until it is upgraded, because I have made a public "promise" to deliver that and by then.

Meridian, if you need any help with getting the FMP compatible with the nightlies let me know. I've already fixed the issue of terror sites crashing the game on the Terrain Pack, so it's a simple matter of updating the FMP ruleset.

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 08:46:34 pm »
At least Warboy's commits are accurately tested before commit. Sometimes he's postponing them for weeks because of something not quite pleasing. Supsuper also not tending to make raw commits.

Just trust me, blind not tested commits are really rare. My "fixes" are heavily tested too. You see there are different classes of commits. Some if them are pure visual. They are not affecting anything. And easily tested. Some - algorithmic. They are also quite easy to test. Fixes/ imrpvments/ extensions related to rulesets are most dangerous because: 1) people tend not to update rulesets when updating exe; 2) they can break mods. Unmodded xcom is tested. It's common practice.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 02:16:49 am »
@Volutar

I found this an interesting statement from Warboy:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1700.msg34414.html#msg34414
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"If your mod is in active development it MUST be tagged as such, or better, released in the experiments forum.
Remember this is the completed mods section, as such it should only be used for milestone releases, not nightly updates.
having a thread in both forums is fine, but releasing experimental and/or game-breaking material here is a big no-no.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 01:36:11 pm by Warboy1982 »"

Does this mean Milestone Updates of the mods?  or of OXC?   Thanks :)

Offline volutar

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Re: The "Please Stop Using 1.0 Discussion"
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 09:05:58 am »
As I understand that means he doesn't support a mess in the forum. Completed mods section is for completed mods working with milestone, and another thread is for WIP version, working with nightly. Isn't it dumb to ignore nightly entirely and only start updating mods only after new milestone released?

But I would like to hear him too.