Thoughts on Apocalypse, and one thing I noticed about the factions

[Dioxine]

But I agree that the aliens looked like $hit.

Pretty much every Battlescape unit did, obviously VESA experiment: failed. They couldn't make it look nice in hi-res. All the more shame, since cityscape and vehicle designs were really interesting, and the destruction possibilities basically unmatched in any other game of this kind.

I haven't noticed this "big mess of everything" thing at all, sure a lot of things were going on, not all made sense since the game was obviously unfinished. Squad management was simplified if anything. What I've noticed were awfully dragged out combats, and either lack of weapon balance (TB) or a feeling of detachment (RT). Honestly if I want something RT, the Aftershock series did it pretty much flawlessly. However, it could be argued that it was Apocalypse that laid the foundation...

Also I didn't like the idea of a closed city that much. Sure it is a cool sandbox, and the faction dynamics were a step in a very, very right direction (if only they were more... complex), but... XCom's Earth, even if mostly featurless, is HUGE. You can feel it even if you zip around it in a Firestorm. The space is real, and the time is real. Being walled-in isn't that cool in comparison. And... subpar was made horrible by the magic reset button: whatever happened, whatever was blown up, it couldn't be destroyed. Everything was being rebuilt, no faction could go bankrupt. While on a huge Earth-like map it'd be reasonable, in a closed city it was ridiculous. I have nothing against daily raids on CoS temples. But on a single and the same temple over and over again...?

But the final verdict, yeah, in many ways it was a milestone, an important game. It had the huge misfortune of being released in the waning days of the golden age, when almost every ambitious game was released unfinished.

[pilot00]

There's so much to fix in this game! It was a shame it couldn't be polished more.

But I agree that the aliens looked like $hit.

And so much cut content to fix and bring it in. I am glad openapoc is on the rails.

[pilot00]

=3184.msg42974#msg42974 date=1429107395]
And... subpar was made horrible by the magic reset button: whatever happened, whatever was blown up, it couldn't be destroyed. Everything was being rebuilt, no faction could go bankrupt. While on a huge Earth-like map it'd be reasonable, in a closed city it was ridiculous. I have nothing against daily raids on CoS temples. But on a single and the same temple over and over again...?

It kinda made sense though, kinda....They were corporations not based on mega primus but on earth in general and the colonies. So when all was said and done all you were dealing with was 'the local department' of said corp. You were creating a huge mess true, but the monetery hole was local. It theoriticaly could be filled in by the main branch (or if you want to strech it, even cause overwhelming retaliation from outside mega primus, but that would be too much IMHO). Plus the effect was there. If you managed to bring them into a huge irreversible dept (like 300k) they wouldnt launch any attacks on you. And that was easy to do, especially in the early game. You just baught a griffon and set it to destroy the Cults temples around the city two times in a row. The cult would never assault you from them on.

This is something that OpenApoc should redisign from scratch IMHO.

[Hobbes]

It kinda made sense though, kinda....They were corporations not based on mega primus but on earth in general and the colonies. So when all was said and done all you were dealing with was 'the local department' of said corp. You were creating a huge mess true, but the monetery hole was local. It theoriticaly could be filled in by the main branch (or if you want to strech it, even cause overwhelming retaliation from outside mega primus, but that would be too much IMHO). Plus the effect was there. If you managed to bring them into a huge irreversible dept (like 300k) they wouldnt launch any attacks on you. And that was easy to do, especially in the early game. You just baught a griffon and set it to destroy the Cults temples around the city two times in a row. The cult would never assault you from them on.

This is something that OpenApoc should redisign from scratch IMHO.

I don't recall exactly if a corporation in debt couldn't launch attacks but one thing that dissuaded against demolishing any buildings was the negative effect on score. Plus the swarms of defending craft that would be launched, and the fact that ground vehicles could be easily destroyed if the road where they stood collapsed.

[the_third_curry]

Personally, I could never get into Apocalypse. It throws a lot at the player right out the gate, the art style has its ups and downs, the battlescape feels rather clunky, and battles alternate between long patches of nothing and getting very sloppy and disorientating.

Above all though, the thing that drove away me from the game is just how tedious it is. While I got the hang of it after a couple of hours, it felt more like I was managing the game than playing it. There are just so many things that could easily have been made much more convenient.

[pilot00]

I don't recall exactly if a corporation in debt couldn't launch attacks but one thing that dissuaded against demolishing any buildings was the negative effect on score. Plus the swarms of defending craft that would be launched, and the fact that ground vehicles could be easily destroyed if the road where they stood collapsed.

Kinda never remember the actual vehicles posing any threat (The only buildings I demolished on purpsose was the cults) but yes I lost the Odd griffon or two from a destroyed road.

I am 90% sure they didnt launch attacks, because in every game that I did this I never had human factions assaulting me. Combined with the help from UFOpedia ofc and keeping tabs on pen and paper I almost never had factions defect.

Score was an issue but once you had things under control a bit of a pew pew kaboom wasnt as much of a problem.

[pilot00]

Kinda never remember the actual vehicles posing any threat (The only buildings I demolished on purpsose was the cults) but yes I lost the Odd griffon or two from a destroyed road.

I am 90% sure they didnt launch attacks, because in every game that I did this I never had human factions assaulting me. Combined with the help from UFOpedia ofc and keeping tabs on pen and paper I almost never had factions defect.

Score was an issue but once you had things under control a bit of a pew pew kaboom wasnt as much of a problem.

Personally, I could never get into Apocalypse. It throws a lot at the player right out the gate, the art style has its ups and downs, the battlescape feels rather clunky, and battles alternate between long patches of nothing and getting very sloppy and disorientating.

Above all though, the thing that drove away me from the game is just how tedious it is. While I got the hang of it after a couple of hours, it felt more like I was managing the game than playing it. There are just so many things that could easily have been made much more convenient.

Its taste I guess, and in my case an aquired one.

[Hobbes]

I am 90% sure they didnt launch attacks, because in every game that I did this I never had human factions assaulting me. Combined with the help from UFOpedia ofc and keeping tabs on pen and paper I almost never had factions defect.

Score was an issue but once you had things under control a bit of a pew pew kaboom wasnt as much of a problem.

The human factions weren't mad enough at you on that game

With enough cash it is possible to keep everyone happy, although you need to watch out for UFOs on Infiltration missions - the UFO will hover over a building and you can see a grey tube connecting the craft to the building. You'll need to investigate those buildings ASAP, otherwise the owners can get brainsucked and then they'll always be hostile to you.

[pilot00]

The human factions weren't mad enough at you on that game

Its not one game, I go out of my way to lose only the most minimum I can and I bunkrupt the hostiles. They are more dangerous than the alliens IMHO.

With enough cash it is possible to keep everyone happy, although you need to watch out for UFOs on Infiltration missions - the UFO will hover over a building and you can see a grey tube connecting the craft to the building. You'll need to investigate those buildings ASAP, otherwise the owners can get brainsucked and then they'll always be hostile to you.

Thats what I meant when I said Pen & papper (to keep tags on buildnings) and ufopedia (because it shows the infiltration %). I kept them reasonably clean. Although there is a small chance they can controll them outright I havent faced that except once or twice.

That said if they bunkrupt they dont attack you.

[Dioxine]

With enough cash it is possible to keep everyone happy, although you need to watch out for UFOs on Infiltration missions - the UFO will hover over a building and you can see a grey tube connecting the craft to the building. You'll need to investigate those buildings ASAP, otherwise the owners can get brainsucked and then they'll always be hostile to you.

"Commander, aliens tried to infiltrate the EvoNet, we fired a Retribution missile at their building as ordered, it worked but the EvoNet is angry at us now!"
"How much to change their friend status to LOVE again?"
"About five million dollars!"
"Tell the team to gear up. We need to raid the Sirius temple three or four times more today."
"We have hit these guys like thirty times this week, and it's only Thursday... Maybe we should raid Diablo for a change?"
"Not sure what political impact it would have and I don't feel like thinking. Sirius temple."
"Aye sir."
"...You know what..."
"Yes?"
"On Sunday, we'll raid the Senate."
"Sir, but that would cost us..."
"...About five more raids on the Sirius temple, yeah. Definitely worth it."

PART2

"We need money to pimp up my Hawk."
"I'm ordering the crew to crafts to raid the Sirius temple right away!"
"Wait. I got tired with shooting down their endless supply of fighters. I wonder whom they're raiding to afford trans-dimensional hangars... anyway, from today on, we'll be using public transport."

PART3

"I think our money vault is a little bit empty."
"What are you saying Commander? We have..."
"Not enough for me, and the whole crew, and our scientists and engineers, and hookers, to use it as a swimming pool."
"...we raid the Sirius temple, I know."

[Hobbes]

Thats what I meant when I said Pen & papper (to keep tags on buildnings) and ufopedia (because it shows the infiltration %). I kept them reasonably clean. Although there is a small chance they can controll them outright I havent faced that except once or twice.

The 'micronoid rain' - the UFO drops instead some colored particles over the building and the organization gets immediately infiltrated.

"...we raid the Sirius temple, I know."

My favorite target is the Marsec Arms Factory - bring everyone with only Stun Launchers then stun and steal everything on sight. Plus, not killing guards means that they don't fire back at your soldiers, and you don't get the extra score points that can trigger the next alien wave escalation.

[Dioxine]

My favorite target is the Marsec Arms Factory - bring everyone with only Stun Launchers then stun and steal everything on sight. Plus, not killing guards means that they don't fire back at your soldiers, and you don't get the extra score points that can trigger the next alien wave escalation.

Killing? Who says anything about killing The gas grenade is the most powerful anti-human weapon anyway, especially later on, and it doesn't damage MY PRECIOUS personal shields Stun launcher is fine too, but less effective I think - I was using it as a backup

[Hobbes]

Killing? Who says anything about killing The gas grenade is the most powerful anti-human weapon anyway, especially later on, and it doesn't damage MY PRECIOUS personal shields Stun launcher is fine too, but less effective I think - I was using it as a backup

Stun grenades against cultists with launchers? That sounds fun, although I'm not sure which side would enjoy it the most

[Dioxine]

They usually spawn in clusters, and I was using a lot of stun grenades... It was really boring and repetitive sight to watch, believe me. Even if I didn't manage to get to their mass spawning points, I was filling everything with gas, retreating behind cover and sitting back while eating peanuts... It was usually all over in less than a minute, that gas works really quick. It was quite normal to make 10 raids and not have any wounded... or not even burn through a single full shield.